How and when to take Supps

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Speedfreak

1.) Are you telling us that Creatine chemically breaks down in a matter of 10 seconds?

2.) It's creatinine, not creatinne. :

Cheers for the correction of spelling!
No Creatine will not fully break down in 10 seconds. However I belive (as do many of the 1000 refrences and the scientist in my link) it is far more optimal to spoon Creatine to make sure none of it has a chance to breakdown before it's in your system.
On a side note you souldn't be downing your PWO shake in 10 seconds anyway this would cuase you to have an overproduction of insulin fallowed by a rapid drop in blood suger cuasing you to store fat.

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

Are we saying that an insulin spike is necessary when taking creatine or just optimal?

Just optimal. However insulin spiking (imo) is not a good idea unless it's PWO. This (among other things) would take away from insulin sensitivity PWO (Your shake would not be as effectivre) as well as an overproduction of insulin (esspecially at the wrong times) will cuase a rapid drop in blood suger cuasing you to store fat.

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by PANIC

can someone please explain the difference of taking creatine before and after a workout?
THanks,

Cratine before a workout will make sure your ATP stores are fully topped with Creatine resulting in more powerful contractions during your workout however your body is not as sensitive to nutriton as it would be PWO and you won't take up as much Creatine as you would with your PWO shake straight after your workout.
The best times to take Creatine are morning (straight after breakfast) as your body is in a simmallar "catabollic state" as it is PWO. Also another good time is with your PWO shake as stated above

[Todd]

Originally Posted by IONOR

Yeah thats the problem it will fully desolve into CREATININE which is a useless byproduct of Creatine. The best way to avoid this happening is to spoon your creatine.

No Creatine will not fully break down in 10 seconds.

Creatine will break down into creatinine within a couple of hours, not a few minutes, so there is plenty of time to ingest it, but the more time that passes, the more it breaks down, as stated in:

This Article

and

This Article

NOTE: Disregard AST's supplement advertisements, just look at the info itself.

Originally Posted by IONOR

However I believe (as do many of the 1000 refrences and the scientist in my link) it is far more optimal to spoon Creatine to make sure none of it has a chance to breakdown before it's in your system.

An article about "spooning creatine".

NOTE: Again, disregard AST's supplement advertisements, just look at the info itself.

[sooner_ed]

If creatine pre-workout will result in more powerful contractions during workout, why not take it before and after a workout?

[Speedfreak]

sooner_ed, if I go home before a workout, that's exactly what I do. I'll take 2g pre-workout, and another 4-5 post-workout, usually seperate from my protein shake. I just started taking creatine again (after 2 years off) about a week and a half ago though, and I haven't done the same routine yet.

I always felt a noticeable difference in strength whenever I would ingest a little pre-workout. It's possible it was psychological, but with as much of a difference as it made, I don't think that's completely the case.

[sooner_ed]

I'm sitting here reading Men's Fitness magazine. There is an article about protein and creatine. Of course it's an ad, but what does anyone think about Cell-Tech and Nitro-Tech used as a stack?

[Lift2Live]

Personally, I wouldn't buy anything that MuscleTech sells. I can't stand that company. It's just my opinion though.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

I'm sitting here reading Men's Fitness magazine. There is an article about protein and creatine. Of course it's an ad, but what does anyone think about Cell-Tech and Nitro-Tech used as a stack?

It would be a good stack, as those supplements do work well, but you may be able to find the same type of supplements with another company for cheaper...that is the problem with MuscleTech....good products, but too expensive!

[Todd]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

If creatine pre-workout will result in more powerful contractions during workout, why not take it before and after a workout?

Yep, the optimal situation would be to take a dose of creatine both before and after working out. Taking it before is beneficial, as explained here.

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Todd

Creatine will break down into creatinine within a couple of hours, not a few minutes, so there is plenty of time to ingest it, but the more time that passes, the more it breaks down, as stated in:
Yeah the article says it wil fully breakdown in a couple of hours. Creatine in unstable in liquid for just about any length of time (again there are scientific studies that I have read that states it all depends on the substance you are mixing it into) yes it won't fully degrade in a few minutes but scientific studies (that I have posted) state it could START to degrade in anything over 20 minutes depending on what your mixing it with.



An article about "spooning creatine".
Again this is based on 1 athlete (or scientists opinion) which I respect. However I have posted over 1000 scientific refrences (among those there is at least 400 that state the usefullness of spooning Creatine and it's advantages over mixing it into a liquid before consuming)

I respect your views and opinions. However I firmly belive "spooning" Creatine is a lot more beneficial than pre mixing :

[Todd]

Originally Posted by IONOR

again there are scientific studies that I have read that states it all depends on the substance you are mixing it into) yes it won't fully degrade in a few minutes but scientific studies (that I have posted) state it could START to degrade in anything over 20 minutes depending on what your mixing it with.

So, mixing it and then drinking it right away within a few minutes is not going to do anything to degrade it, as according to your studies (as you've stated above), that depending on what you mix it in, creatine could start to degrade in anything over 20 mins...so it seems logical then the answer is simply to drink it as soon as possible (before the 20 minute mark). So again, why is "spooning" anymore advantageous?

I respect your views and opinions. However I firmly belive "spooning" Creatine is a lot more beneficial than pre mixing :

Hey well that's cool, you spoon, I mix, whatever works for you.

PS: Could you post a few of those studies showing why and how "spooning" creatine is a lot more beneficial compared to just mixing micronized creatine and drinking it down quickly? Thanks, would appreciate it.

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Todd

PS: Could you post a few of those studies showing why and how "spooning" creatine is a lot more beneficial compared to just mixing micronized creatine and drinking it down quickly? Thanks, would appreciate it.

Yeah sure!
(Instead of writting the full studies out I will write them in abstact form and post refrences at bottom)
Two seprate groups contaning 5 athletes each. Both groups supplemented with Creatine one group mixed there 5 gram serving of Creatine into a PWO shake of there choice and the other group was given a mesured 5 gram dose (1 teaspoon).
Scientific tests were taken two weeks later which concluded that the group who injested there Creatine straight (spooned) had a far sufficent uptake of Creatine and better increase of Creatine ATP storage than the group who mixed there Creatine into there PWO shake.
The study also concluded that Creatine wil start to degrade when mixed into a sugery drink (a PWO shake) a lot quicker than otherwise thought. Anything "over 20 minutes would mean that your Creatine will have started to fully degrade" confirmed one of the scientists when asked about his findings.
Taking a 5 gram dose will mean the uptake of Creatine will be far superior due to the nature of injestion and the chances of the Creatine degrading before it's in your5 system.
METHAB POPOVICH BK AND DILLMANN WH/study of nature of Creatine injestion and retanation/h11151-h11158 2000 (abstract/free full text)
A study that was concluded in 2002 confirmed that a 5 gram dose of Creatine will stmulate muscle glycogen content in human muscle best when not combined straight into a shake.
MEYAR KL STERGHENS JP HENRY R DOUGHEAU AND COLLOMBEL C/ I dentification of the digestive proporties due to the nature of digestion of Creatine/ Acta 1387 80-88 1998
Twelve athletes took a 5 gram dose (spooned) of Creatine and another twelve mixed there dose into a drink of there choice and consumed.
Studies (over 4 weeks) were taken of Creatine uptake by muscle cells. The study confirmed that the study which took the 5 gram dose straight (spooned) had a far greater uptake of Creatine and a far sufficent increase of ATP Creatine phosphorate storage.
MEYER RA/ study into the uptake of creatine due too diffrence in injestion over 4 weeks/ AMJ Physiol cell physiol 257 c11148-c11157/2001
It is concluded that the injestion nature of Creatine in conjunction with 50 g Protien and CHO mixed is not as effective at potentianting insulin release and Creatine retention as injesting 5 grams at once.
MIVART MARAOSKAS AND OGISOT/ study into the injestion and uptake of Creatine Monohydrate/ 2002
I could post more studies however I think these are the most conclusive that "spooned" Creatine is a lot more benefical than mixing it into a drink and drinking due to the diffrence in digestive tract. These studies would have us believe (however I'am unsure of why the digestion capabilties would be diffrent just becuase of the way we are taking Creatine). It doesn't just seem that due to Creatine being unstable we should "spoon" it the whole uptake of Creatine seems to be far better!
:

[Todd]

Interesting, but I still fail to see how spooning is more beneficial. I mean, when referring to creatine being "spooned", are you talking about throwing 5 grams into your mouth and then drinking water to flush it down with? Or are you talking about somehow swallowing 5 grams of creatine without any liquid at all. If you are using water or something to flush it down with, then what is the difference between doing that and mixing it in any other liquid and drinking it down right away. It is all ending up in the stomach all the same. See what I mean? How is there any significant benefits to "spooning" it, rather than mixing it up and drinking it down quickly. Like said in those studies, creatine does not breakdown immediately...it does take some time.

It is concluded that the injestion nature of Creatine in conjunction with 50 g Protien and CHO mixed is not as effective at potentianting insulin release and Creatine retention as injesting 5 grams at once.

I totally fail to see how this could be concluded. How can straight creatine create more of an insulin spike than creatine taken with a simple carb beverage? That simply does not make sense, and it doesn't take a scientific study to know that this is not true.

Taking a 5 gram dose will mean the uptake of Creatine will be far superior due to the nature of injestion and the chances of the Creatine degrading before it's in your5 system.

How is it "far superior". Again, unless it degrades within a couple of minutes, I don't see what the big deal is if one consumes it quickly when mixed in a simple carb drink.

I guess what I am looking for in all of this (and the studies you provided above) are the reasoning as to WHY it is more beneficial...WHY is that so much better....what is making it so much more beneficial to "spoon" it rather than drinking it down immediately. Unless creatine degradation occurs within the first few minutes of being exposed to a liquid, I don't see the validity or one good reason why someone would have to "spoon" creatine at all. Explain all of that, and I will be convinced.

Secondly, if what you claim is true, then there is apparently no need to consume a PWO shake with your creatine or a simple carb drink? Am I understanding this right? If not, then WHEN do these researchers suggest one consume your PWO shake/simple carb drink, if at all? See what I am getting at here?

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Todd

Interesting, but I still fail to see how spooning is more beneficial. I mean, when referring to creatine being "spooned", are you talking about throwing 5 grams into your mouth and then drinking water to flush it down with? Yes you would have to drink water to fully digest the Creatine (not doing so is like not chewing your food) it takes approximetly 600ml of water to digest Creatine Or are you talking about somehow swallowing 5 grams of creatine without any liquid at all. If you are using water or something to flush it down with, then what is the difference between doing that and mixing it in any other liquid and drinking it down right away.The diffrence is that it has been pre mixed and this would mean the Creatine would be digested diffrently (apparently according to the studies I have posted) if Creatine is already unstable (some of it already degrades into a byproduct when it's getting digested) however more of this creatine will not get broken down becuase you are not mixing (by the time you mix it and drink the whole shake it could be 5 minutes or more meaning that the Creatine is even more unstable). it at all and just swallowing it straight away is all ending up in the stomach all the same. See what I mean?Yes but the digestive tract seems to be diffrent (again I could post more studies that seem to say the same) How is there any significant benefits to "spooning" it, rather than mixing it up and drinking it down quickly. Like said in those studies, creatine does not breakdown immediately...it does take some time.



I totally fail to see how this could be concluded. How can straight creatine create more of an insulin spike than creatine taken with a simple carb beverage? That simply does not make sense, and it doesn't take a scientific study to know that this is not true. Thats what the study said. It seems unlikely but if a study concluded this prehaps it can't be ruled out. I personally am just saying what a study said I don't have much view on this myself.



How is it "far superior". Again, unless it degrades within a couple of minutes, I don't see what the big deal is if one consumes it quickly when mixed in a simple carb drink.

I guess what I am looking for in all of this (and the studies you provided above) are the reasoning as to WHY it is more beneficial...WHY is that so much better....what is making it so much more beneficial to "spoon" it rather than drinking it down immediately. I listed a few reasons in my studies as posted above Unless creatine degradation occurs within the first few minutes of being exposed to a liquid, it ahs a lot more to do with ATP storeage and retanmtation than it has whether it will degrade or not I don't see the validity or one good reason why someone would have to "spoon" creatine at all. Explain all of that, and I will be convinced. I have posted a few good reasons in the studies above

Secondly, if what you claim is true, then there is apparently no need to consume a PWO shake with your creatine or a simple carb drink? Am I understanding this right? If not, then WHEN do these researchers suggest one consume your PWO shake/simple carb drink, if at all? See what I am getting at here?

No they still state that your PWO shake should be straight after your workout (and it is as important as everyone thinks) the only thing that would be diffrent in this case is you "spoon" your Creatine rather than mixing it in with your PWO shake.