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Nutritional Supplements Which supplements work? Which don't? Come and discuss related topics in here.


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Old 19-Jul-02, 07:26 PM   #1
jluna
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Iam a 31 year old woman and want to gain more muscle


I've been weight traing for almost 3 years and got the routine down w/ achange up every 6 weeks or so , I eat clean , get adequte amounts of protein and get even a 5 day a week cardio session mostly on the stair climber fo 30 minutes everytime. I choose the stair climber because my saddlebags insist to stick around. I started taking DHEA at 50 mg in th a.m. and 100 mg in the p.m. in the hopes of gaining more lean muscle and losing that stubborn fat around my butt. I would appreciate any tips or advise on this matter.
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Old 19-Jul-02, 07:38 PM   #2
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When do you do cardio?
When do you do your weight lifting?

How long and what kind of intensity on the cardio?

You will have to diet eventually to get rid of that last remaining fat. For guys it's the gut that goes last. Any idea what your calorie intake is? Weight?

Questions, questions, questions....
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Old 19-Jul-02, 10:21 PM   #3
jluna
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Answers to your ???'s


Quote:
Originally posted by Fudomyo
When do you do cardio?
When do you do your weight lifting?

How long and what kind of intensity on the cardio?

You will have to diet eventually to get rid of that last remaining fat. For guys it's the gut that goes last. Any idea what your calorie intake is? Weight?

Questions, questions, questions....
I usually do cardio after my 45 mins of weight training sometimes I just do 30 - 40 mins of cardio and no weight training or vice versa. The intensity level is high. If I do go on a calorie retricted diet, I'll lose the hard earned muscle I've gained, right? My calorie intake is around 1900. from 118 pounds I now weigh 142. I stand 5'4" on a medium frame.

Last edited by jluna; 19-Jul-02 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 19-Jul-02, 10:39 PM   #4
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Well gaining some muscle is certainly going to make losing weight easier. There is a sticky post in the training section that has some general guidlines to follow. It applies to everyone.

Doing cardio after lifting is very catabolic (muscle wasting). You are very low on glycogen, and your body will turn to the next quickest source to burn up, which is protein (ie muscle).

So either, keep you cardio on different days, or train the am, and run at night.

Running hard for a shorter amount of time is more beneficial for losing calories. This raises your metabolism, which is what burns the most calories. If you are not dieting, this may have very little affect, because your metabolism should quite normal at this point.

There's only 3 things you need to build muscle.
Muscle stimulus
Rest & Recuperation
Nutrition

I'll give you nutrition (for the moment). You failed on rest and recouperation.

So what does your weight lifting routine look like?
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Old 19-Jul-02, 10:47 PM   #5
jluna
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My training


Monday's- chest and back
Tuesday- Rest
Wednesday- Legs
Thursday- Rest
Friday- shoulders, bi's / tri's
Saturday- Rest
Sunday- Whole body workout using mostly isometrics
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Old 20-Jul-02, 12:56 AM   #6
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Looks fine.

Reps of 4-6 or 10-12?
To failure or not?

What I'm getting at, though slowly, is that you need to be lifting heavy. Overload is the only thing that will make your body decide that it really needs more muscle. Since muscle burns 3000% more calories than fat, it is hard to talk your body into that.

3-4 warmup sets, and then sets to failure, in the 4-6 range. Workouts should be no longer than an hour. 45 minutes works better.
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Old 20-Jul-02, 05:01 AM   #7
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ok, now what about taking DHEA the way I'm doing? Any thing you can tell me about that?
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Old 20-Jul-02, 05:18 AM   #8
Lee J B
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Hi,

What Is DHEA?
Dehydroepiandrosterone, or DHEA, is a steroid hormone, a chemical cousin of testosterone and estrogen. It is made from cholesterol by the adrenal glands, which sit atop each kidney. For the first few years of life, the adrenals make very little DHEA. Around age six or seven, they begin churning it out. Production peaks in the mid-20s, when DHEA is the most abundant hormone in circulation. From one's early '30s on, there's a steady decline in DHEA production, so the average 75-year-old has only 20% of the DHEA in circulation that he or she had 50 years earlier. At all ages, men tend to have higher DHEA levels than women.

By definition, hormones are chemical messengers made in a gland or tissue that start, stop, or otherwise orchestrate activity in some other issue. That makes DHEA a hormone in name only, since no one knows exactly what it does in the body. For years it was thought to be a kind of chemical trash left over from making other hormones. Today, "we still haven't been able to identify any mechanism of action," says Dr. Casson.

In fact, about the only thing that researchers can agree on is that DHEA is easily converted into other hormones, especially estrogen and testosterone.

The Food and Drug Administration isn't sure what to do with DHEA supplements. Ten years ago the agency told companies to stop selling DHEA, which was marketed at the time for weight loss, and classified it as an unapproved new drug, obtainable only by prescription. Then in 1994, DHEA was reclassified as a dietary supplement, allowing sales over the counter.

The Evidence
Much of DHEA's reputation as a wonder hormone comes from experiments in which mice or rats were fed daily doses. Such studies have shown that DHEA can prevent or delay the onset of cancer, "hardening" of the arteries, lethal viral infections, lowered immunity, obesity, and diabetes. But what works in rodents doesn't necessarily work in humans. That may be especially true in this case, because rats and mice produce only about 1/10,000 the DHEA we do.

An early human study that pointed to possible benefits for DHEA came from Dr. Barrett-Connor's group. They measured DHEA levels in blood samples taken from almost 2,000 men and women between 1972 and 1974 and looked at how many died from heart disease. In 1986, they reported that men with high DHEA levels were far less likely to have died of heart disease, while women with high DHEA levels were at greater risk. A more detailed analysis published late last year, however, showed that men with above-average DHEA levels back in the early 1970s were only 15% less likely to have died of heart disease, while there was no association between DHEA levels and heart disease in women.

The longest and perhaps most carefully conducted work in humans comes from Dr. Yen and his associates. In their latest study, published last year in a special issue of the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences devoted to DHEA and aging, eight men and eight women aged 50 to 65 took either 100 milligrams of DHEA or an identical placebo pill each night for three months. For three months after that, they took the opposite pill.

Within two weeks of starting DHEA, circulating levels of the hormone were a bit higher than normally found in young adults. Lean body mass increased slightly in both ***es, as did muscle strength, which also improved with the placebo. Fat body mass decreased in men but increased a bit in women. There was also a rise in some chemical markers that suggested improvement in immune function, though the number of colds and other illnesses was not measured.

An earlier study from Dr. Yen's group showed that three months of daily 50-milligram doses of DHEA significantly improved the sense of "well-being," it did not improve *** drive, as advertisements for DHEA often claim..

Another study in which volunteers took DHEA suggests that this hormone may help treat the autoimmune disease lupus. Trials looking at DHEA's ability to boost the immune system and maintain mental function in older adults are in progress.

Experiments on a few dozen people over six months hardly constitute proof that a treatment works. "What we really need at this point are some long-term clinical trials to identify clear benefits and risks," says Dr. Nestler.

One reason why such trials are crucial is that DHEA has side effects, some of which may be irreversible. Since DHEA is converted into testosterone, some women who take it grow body or facial hair and, if they are under age 50 or so, can stop menstruating. DHEA has also been shown to decrease levels of HDL ("good") cholesterol in women, and could increase the risk of heart disease, the leading killer of older women. "We have no idea what DHEA might do to the risk of breast cancer," says Dr. Nestler.

In men, the increased levels of testosterone seen with daily DHEA pills could stimulate the growth of a tiny prostate tumor that would otherwise have remained dormant. Excess testosterone could also cause the prostate to enlarge, making urination difficult.

The Bottom Line
Much of the popular and scientific interest in DHEA stems from our culture's emphasis on youth. If levels of this hormone decline with age, the thinking goes, we could avoid the health problems that accompany aging -- or even extend our lifespan -- by keeping DHEA levels high. Many people are already taking DHEA just in case this turns out to be true. That wouldn't be a problem if this substance were as safe as vitamin C. But as a potent steroid hormone, DHEA has the potential for far-reaching side effects throughout the body.

The rush to take DHEA is a curious paradox, especially when compared with the slow, almost grudging acceptance of hormone replacement therapy for older women. After menopause, hormone supplements that boost dwindling levels of estrogen help prevent osteoporosis and may protect against heart disease. There are also some known or suspected risks with estrogen replacement, such as a possible increase in the risk of breast cancer. Despite mounting evidence that the benefits substantially outweigh the risks, most women in the US choose not to start hormone replacement therapy.

With DHEA and aging, there are no proven benefits and some potentially serious risks. Yet people are flocking to use this virtually unregulated substance, which troubles HealthNews associate editor Arthur Feinberg, MD.

"The potential for irreversible side effects is real," he says. "So given that there's no convincing evidence for any benefit of DHEA, I feel strongly that people should not take it."


Theres some different views, whilst i was looking around I also found some tragic cases from people who were only taking 25mg a day, dont mean to put you off, but make sure you know how to use this stuff. Read this info, and then check it out some more, because if you are taking it already but your asking steve if there is anything he can tell you about it .. seems to suggest you need to read up a bit more.. not trying to get at you just saying.
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Old 20-Jul-02, 12:42 PM   #9
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Changing your workout will make much more of a difference than adding DHEA. If you are still itching to add something you might look into Nor-Testosterone percursors. Anabolic, but not as androgenic.

So try moving your cardio. There's lots of people on this board who lose weight without any cardio (like moi), but I have yet to talk many women into this. The 400 womens magazines have me out numbered. Just remember womens magazines are interested only in "weight" loss, not exclusively fat loss.

Your workouts should be short and intense. After 3 years your body will love this. I would also workout each body part once a week. You are at twice at week now. Legs, back, and chest are the 3 biggest muscle groups. Those should be your big workout days. I'd even drop Sunday myself, but I hate messing with anyone's Sunday.

What's your Post-Workout nutrition look like? If you exercise and eat your body will enter a highly anabolic state for 3-6 hrs. Basically everyone here drinks a post workout shake consisting of high GI sugar, a protein isolate, glutamine and creatine. Then you should eat a small meal, every hour.

Studies have shown that if you eat 2 hrs after exercise you will actually lose muscle mass, instead of gaining it. Lame.

I hope that helps. I know it's completely different than you will find in any mass media, but it works.

Fudo
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Old 20-Jul-02, 08:00 PM   #10
jluna
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Thanks for all helpful advise and insight. I'll make a change in the area of my cardio sessions and keep you all posted on the progress. In the mean time I also daecide to stop the DHEA and see what kind of results I'll have without it. Thanks again.
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Old 22-Jul-02, 07:29 PM   #11
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Jluna another thing you might want to try is to do your cardio in the morning as soon as you get up before eating breakfast, this allows your body to tap into fat sources easier because you have no other fuel sources available upon rising, if you are healthy, you can try a fat burning product like hydroxycut, xenadrine, ripped fuel etc. Check with a doctor first though. This might help gice you an edge to you fat loss problems. When doing legs, make sure you do lunges, these stress your behind muscles a lot. Good luck. Lets us know your progress.

Chubbs
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Old 23-Jul-02, 01:24 PM   #12
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....tap into fat sources easier because you have no other fuel sources available upon rising
*Sigh*

You can't burn fat much faster than your resting metabolism. Ergo, your body will burn the next closest source, which is protein (aka muscle), since it's out of carbs.

Never do any exercise on an empty stomach. Always eat before and after.
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Old 23-Jul-02, 02:13 PM   #13
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thought you want to burn fat not carbs, so your saying eat, then go do cardio???
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Old 23-Jul-02, 02:42 PM   #14
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You want to burn fat. You will burn fat doing cardio on an empty stomach even. I'll even tell you that cardio on an empty stomach is an excellent weight loss technique. You just won't look any healthier, since you are losing muscle and fat.

Cardio on an empty stomach is just not the most beneficial thing to do long term. Muscle burns 3000% more calories than fat. So you don't ever want to tap into that resource for fuel. Running on an empty stomach, with low glycogen (carb) reserves, will burn some muscle.

Second, there are two great benefits you can get from cardio. One is that it will increase your resting metabolism. Your thermogenic metabolism.

Your calories are spent on
Exercise 15%
Digestion 15%
Keeping warm 70%

Maybe you walk for 45 minutes you can bump up the Exercise calories a few percent. That's a start.

However, if you do some short, intense cardio (15 minutes), increasing your metabolism, you bump up the 70% figure! How often are you warm in the day? That's right, 24 hrs a day. Now you are really burning some calories.

The second benefit is that anaerobic exercise makes lots of growth hormone. Guess what, that makes you build muscle and lose fat! Kriky! Without lifting weights even.

So if you like doing cardio first thing in the am, have a small snack, half a yogurt, and few slices of turkey, and a few peanuts and go workout. Have the same thing when you are done.

Fudo
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Old 29-Jul-02, 05:06 PM   #15
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Cool

Considering that many men are recommended by their doctors not to exceed 25-50 mg of DHEA to increase their testosterone levels and the subsequent benefits, and that women only contain approxiamately 10% of the testosterone levels of men, I agree strongly with your assessment to stop taking DHEA.

There are many other supplements for women that can do a better job.
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