Insulin Spike

[Gilogy]

I keep reading how people add Dextrose or Grape juice to their PWO Shake to create an Insulin Spike for delivery etc...

Does anyone know how much sugar/carbs is really required to create such an effect?

I know that 8oz of Grape Juice has about 40g of Sugars / 42g of Carbs and is 170 calories. Is that the magic number or can you get the same effect with half that amount?

[Lift2Live]

It's not really 'the' magic number. I've read quite a few articles lately though that say 50g of simple carbs directly after is optimal, then 50g more (more complex) throughout the next hour. This is just a basic guidline though. I would assume everyone's body is different and can vary to some degree. Personally, I just use 2 cups of gatorade mixed with protein for my PWO. Comes to around 40g sugars and works.

[sooner_ed]

Darn good question Gilogy. Being a diabetic, I have to be concerned with an insulin spike. But just last night, I tried something different. I've heard people here say they use grape juice. My wife had some Welches "lite" grape drink in the frig last night. 8 oz has like 14 carbs, so I dumped my protein in 8 oz of that and shook it up. It actually tasted very good. Maybe not an "optimal" insulin spike, but it's one that I can handle as a diabetic and I bet I still got some good results doing it that way.

Lift, good idea with the gatorade. I have some instant gatorade powder in the cupboard. No reason why I can't mix up my protein with the gatorade powder, add some water and shake it up really good. I'm getting some really good ideas here. Cool.

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by sooner_ed

Maybe not an "optimal" insulin spike, . . Cool.

I would HIGHLY recommend you check with your doctor Ed, since your body doesn't handle insulin well by adding those sugars into your post-workout shake may not be doing YOU the best service. Type II diabetics CAN become insulin dependant (i.e. injections). I personally think the insulin spike is HIGHLY overrated. I don't intentionally spike mine and I have managed to drop fat and increase muslce.

[sooner_ed]

Originally Posted by Lady C

I would HIGHLY recommend you check with your doctor Ed, since your body doesn't handle insulin well by adding those sugars into your post-workout shake may not be doing YOU the best service. Type II diabetics CAN become insulin dependant (i.e. injections). I personally think the insulin spike is HIGHLY overrated. I don't intentionally spike mine and I have managed to drop fat and increase muslce.

Lady C, I appreciate your concern. I already know what my acceptable ranges are for sugar and carbs. I have consulted with my doctor and my diabetic nutritionalist to know what I can and can not do. I have gone through the diabetic nutrition classes and consulted with her one-on-one. I have also counseled with my doctor on these issues as well to know what my acceptable ranges are. Fifteen grams of sugar at one time is well within my acceptable range. It all has to do, as you well know, with your carb and sugar intake during the rest of the day as well and making allowances. I have made it a point to educate myself to the fullest as far as my diabetes is concerned. That is why I needed to know how much of an insulin spike people were talking about. Were they talking about 50 grams or 15 grams? I know that 50 grams of simple sugars is way to much for me and I can not do that. But 15 grams falls well into my acceptable range. And how much a diabetic can have also depends on their nutritional and phsyical lifestyle. Right now, I am operating on all cylinders as far as weight, nutrition, and exercise and I know where my limits stand. I also have my blood labs done once every three months to know where those values stand as well. So I am keeping up with EVERYTHING so I know where my limits are in conjuction with the nutrition classes and counseling. I know you've been on me hot and heavy about this issue and I truly appreciate that, but I am truly "up" on this subject much more than you think I am and I know what I can and can not do. And when I am unsure about it, I either don't do it or I pick up the phone and call my doctor. However, I do know, that 8 oz of juice with 14 sugar carbs is more than acceptable for me :

[rufiedog]

Originally Posted by Gilogy

I keep reading how people add Dextrose or Grape juice to their PWO Shake to create an Insulin Spike for delivery etc...

Does anyone know how much sugar/carbs is really required to create such an effect?

I know that 8oz of Grape Juice has about 40g of Sugars / 42g of Carbs and is 170 calories. Is that the magic number or can you get the same effect with half that amount?

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The above should be what you need

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[Todd]

Originally Posted by Lady C

I would HIGHLY recommend you check with your doctor Ed, since your body doesn't handle insulin well by adding those sugars into your post-workout shake may not be doing YOU the best service. Type II diabetics CAN become insulin dependant (i.e. injections). I personally think the insulin spike is HIGHLY overrated. I don't intentionally spike mine and I have managed to drop fat and increase muslce.

I have to disagree with the notion that insulin spikes are highly overrated. Insulin is a major component to both cellular growth and optimizing the results of your workouts (muscle growth, fat loss, etc). And spiking your insulin at the right times, the right way, is crucial to getting the MOST from your efforts in the gym.

Have a look at this article.. NOTE: Just ignore the promoted supplements within the article, and concentrate on the information provided.

[Gilogy]

Thanks Todd -- That article had the specific answer I was seeking.

consume a dose of simple, easily digested liquid carbohydrates after training (around 0.5 of a gram per kilogram of body weight).

[armorforsleep]

aren't the sugars in grape juice fructose, not glucose? fructose is preferentially sent to the liver for glycogen storage, rather than sent to the muscles (which need glucose). therefore wouldn't grape juice be very ineffective for replenishing muscle glycogen especially in such a time as post workout?

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Josephina

aren't the sugars in grape juice fructose, not glucose? fructose is preferentially sent to the liver for glycogen storage, rather than sent to the muscles (which need glucose). therefore wouldn't grape juice be very ineffective for replenishing muscle glycogen especially in such a time as post workout?

Exactly the most optimal PWO spike should be a 50/50 mix of Dextose and Maltodextrin mixed with whey and water
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[Lee J B]

I was at university the other day talking about this exact same subject with a Prof. of pharmacology & neuroscience. The threshold level or 'sensitivity' varies in people (if you couldn't guess), however an average dose of 13.5g of carbohyrates (simple, high G.I) will overcome the threshold and cause insulin to be released into the blood stream. I've stopped intentionally spiking insulin levels, I did it for two years - and since I've stopped I haven't noticed any difference.

Insulin is NOT involved in molecular / cellular growth or production of amino acid sequences, it's just a carrier for nutrients that has a specific receptor protein on the target cells (muscle fibres), so growth is a by product of insulin. You can grow perfectly well without shuttling nutrients to your muscles asap.

I wouldn't rec. you take NO carbs PW, but I would suggest that you take the minimal amount needed (max 19g). Insulin can't be stored or converted back, it's a hormone that's released directly in to the blood stream - so if you overflow with it consistently you can say hello to a range of problems (i.e high blood pressure (blood volume is constantly high as water potential decreases rapidly).)

[IONOR]

Yes however we need the carbs in our PWO shake for more than just "spiking insulin". Carbs themselves repenish muscle glycogen and glucose PWO they also help in the breakdown and more optimal delivery of Amino acids (protien) at any time. As well as being the bodys main source of fuel and vital in high doses on a bulk if you want to build any muscle.
The best PWO mix should contain double carbs to Protien ratio

[IONOR]

Originally Posted by Lee J B

Insulin can't be stored or converted back, it's a hormone that's released directly in to the blood stream - so if you overflow with it consistently you can say hello to a range of problems (i.e high blood pressure (blood volume is constantly high as water potential decreases rapidly).)

Yes however we won't have such problems if we steeer clear of high GI carbs all through the day and only use them PWO. When you say "consistently" this would not be overnight moreo ver the case of years.

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by Lee J B

however an average dose of 13.5g of carbohyrates (simple, high G.I) will overcome the threshold and cause insulin to be released into the blood stream.

Ok, that is exactly what I've found. Some sugars but not enough to add fat or make you crash an hour later.

[cursor]

Originally Posted by Lee J B

The threshold level or 'sensitivity' varies in people (if you couldn't guess), however an average dose of 13.5g of carbohyrates (simple, high G.I) will overcome the threshold and cause insulin to be released into the blood stream.

Great post Lee.

The amount (and type) of carbohydrates and protein that's most beneficial for any particular individual will vary. I can't stress enough the need to become familiar with the effects of that various combinations (and amounts) have on your own body.

My personal experience has demonstrated to me that high GI carbohydrates, in large dosages, does not represent a necessary component in quality muscle growth. Depending on how you exercise (intensity/duration), the amount (and type) of protein, carbohydrates, and fats that will best suit your body can vary dramatically. There is a point where the food that you pump down you gullet not only won't contribute to muscle growth, it'll ensure that your fat stores stay nice and plump.