Joints?

Merrida · 11-Apr-03, 02:04 PM

We were discussing the pro's and con's of using glucosamine and chondroitin in another thread (somewhere) as a tangent, but I'd like to start an official one to get some feedback regarding supplements to help with joints.

I just saw an ad for flexium (I think that's what it's called) and it's a blend of SAM-e and glucosamine (I don't think it has chondroitin in it).

From the other threads I gather the two work with regards to synovial fluid and lubrication but that nothing really rebuilds cartiledge. Then I'd see an ad on TV or read one in a mag and it talks very specifically about "rebuilding cartiledge" and how it is not a pain reliever or symptom solver, it fixes the problem.

So I'm confused.

Then I see this product which has SAM-e in it (and I thought that was used more for depression? And that there was a LOT of hooplah around it because when tests were conducted the ingredients were supposedly innert, -- unless that has changed?) The "report" I saw (it was on 20/20 or something similar) was several years ago. Anyway, did I confuse this?

When someone posted about glucosamine/chondroitin contributing to insulin resistance, that made me nervous (is this true? I've never read or heard anything about that, and I'm not sure I can follow the chemical chain to see how that happens).

Tuna Fish · 11-Apr-03, 02:47 PM

Hi Merrida-

Read here: Cartilage

There's hope, anyway. Lots of good info on the web.

Merrida · 11-Apr-03, 05:05 PM

Very cool, thank you for the link!

It's amazing how so much information is available, and yet so much of it is contradictory... studies are there to back up virtually anything, which makes getting reliable, valid information so much more difficult.

Nothing beats referrals and personal experiences.... studies don't provide the benefit of interactive responses, that's why I like forums so much.

Thanks again!

Gohan · 11-Apr-03, 05:30 PM

I actually did a search on yahoo and in yahoo's medical section it said that glucosomine and chondroitin which is derived from some kind of fish oil actually rebuilds joint cartilage. I tried it for a while and my joint pain went away i have discontinued it and have occasional joint pain. I never do close grip bench because this will aggrivate my joints. The sh$t is pretty expensive. I think it is worth it though. This is just my opinion. I would love to here other members experiences and opinion on this supplement as well.

Lee J B · 11-Apr-03, 05:59 PM

There's no tests to link glucosamine to insulin resistence dont worry, and in my eyes this supplement especially the glucosamine/chondroitin complex is extremely effective for joints, but I have to agree with you it is not effective or indeed I dont even think it aids in rebuilding caritledge (read: if it does and therer are tests you can almost garuntee it's going to be nowhere near as good as supplementing with the supps that are specifically designed for cartiledge rebuilding, so my point is just buy the glucosamine and then another supp for the cartiledge and not the g/c complex), if any out of the two are going to help with that its going to be the chondroitin.

Streax · 11-Apr-03, 06:09 PM

Well, I did notice a remarkable difference in my joints after 6 months of supplementation with chondroitin and glucosamine, but upon stopping I had a whole lot more energy. It was significant enough that I noticed the effects and when I later read this article and a few others, I realized I must be one of the people that is very sensative to it.

http://www.mafgroup.com/sports/nutr...sn_021003.shtml

I will see if I can find some more info that I read somewheres.

-Jim

Lee J B · 11-Apr-03, 06:11 PM

Thanks Streax thats interesting - obviously it does affect people's blood sugar and insulin levels then.... but only some, hmmmm anymore links on info for this subject? Seems quite interesting now..

Streax · 11-Apr-03, 06:13 PM

found this:

Endocrinology 1999 Sep;140(9):3971-80

Glucosamine regulation of glucose metabolism in cultured human skeletal muscle cells: divergent effects on glucose transport/phosphorylation and glycogen synthase in non-diabetic and type 2 diabetic subjects.

Ciaraldi TP, Carter L, Nikoulina S, Mudaliar S, McClain DA, Henry RR.

Department of Medicine, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093, USA.

Chronic exposure (48 h) to glucosamine resulted in a dose-dependent reduction of basal and insulin-stimulated glucose uptake activities in human skeletal muscle cell cultures from nondiabetic and type 2 diabetic subjects. Insulin responsiveness of uptake was also reduced. There was no change in total membrane expression of either GLUT1, GLUT3, or GLUT4 proteins. While glucosamine treatment had no significant effects on hexokinase activity measured in cell extracts, glucose phosphorylation in intact cells was impaired after treatment. Under conditions where glucose transport and phosphorylation were down regulated, the fractional velocity (FV) of glycogen synthase was increased by glucosamine treatment. Neither the total activity nor protein expression of glycogen synthase were influenced by glucosamine treatment. The stimulation of glycogen synthase by glucosamine was not due totally to soluble mediators. Reflective of the effects on transport/phosphorylation, total glycogen content and net glycogen synthesis were reduced after glucosamine treatment. These effects were similar in nondiabetic and type 2 cells. In summary: 1) Chronic treatment with glucosamine reduces glucose transport/phosphorylation and storage into glycogen in skeletal muscle cells in culture and impairs insulin responsiveness as well. 2) Down-regulation of glucose transport/phosphorylation occurs at a posttranslational level of GLUTs. 3) Glycogen synthase activity increases with glucosamine treatment. 4) Nondiabetic and type 2 muscle cells display equal sensitivity and responsiveness to glucosamine. Increased exposure of skeletal muscle to glucosamine, a substrate/precursor of the hexosamine pathway, alters intracellular glucose metabolism at multiple sites and can contribute to insulin resistance in this tissue.