L-Arginine Powder

[DaRkAnGel]

WHo here has had experience with supplementing l-arginine?

Any noticeable vasodilation effects? Any other benefits?

Im planning on adding it to my pre/post workout shakes.

[rangers97]

i have it in capsule form. i have to admit, I haven't taken it every single day, but I have used it occassionaly, and I didn't notice any differences. Was I not taking enough? How much are you using?

[.V.]

I'd like to learn more too. I just bought some tonight. Not as a bodybuilding suppliment. It's the missing amino from my oral copaxone I'm making. I just can't tolerate taking those shots any longer. Interesting thing - that drug is made from 4 amino acids. Each of them are actually used as neurotransmitters in the body. Each of them has some CNS protective ability. Each of them is recognized as a foreign protein by the immune system and attacked (in my case this is the goal - give the immune system something to work on besides my CNS). Each of them except for L-Lysine are used as bodybuilding suppliments because they supposedly help the CNS recover or help with vasodilation so you get more blood flow to the muscles. However, from what I've actually read - the dosages on the bottles makes them crap.

I know the oral copaxone was denied approval by the FDA because it didn't work for most people so those of us on it were stuck with taking injections every day. It didn't work because the body recognized the amino acids as incomplete protein and digested them and used them in protein synthesis in the body. So for realy BB use, I suspect it's probably not nearly as good as it's hyped to be. In a big enough dosage, mixed into a liquid, taken on an empty stomach (kind of like those of us who use GABA successfully) some of it may get to where you want it to go.

[DaRkAnGel]

I know people who take up to 10 g a day.

I have not tried it yet. though.

[.V.]

10g/day? I was thinking about starting with 27g/day. But I'll have to experiment with the dosage to find the right one for what I'm using it for.

I'll post it if I notice any "pump" effects from it though.

In 2003, I took NOX-2 or whatever it's called for probably 6 months. I bought into the hype when it first came out. I will say this looking back - I ran the best in 2003 during the period that I was taking it

Was it the product, my training, or someone else? Who knows. I've thought about taking it again, but I've liberated myself from all supplements having come to the conclusion that I am well-enough fed to get all the nutrients that I need from the food that I eat. But I wonder.

[rangers97]

Originally Posted by pierini

In 2003, I took NOX-2 or whatever it's called for probably 6 months. I bought into the hype when it first came out. I will say this looking back - I ran the best in 2003 during the period that I was taking it

Was it the product, my training, or someone else? Who knows. I've thought about taking it again, but I've liberated myself from all supplements having come to the conclusion that I am well-enough fed to get all the nutrients that I need from the food that I eat. But I wonder.

what is in that stuff, do you remember?

[.V.]

From the label:


Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG)
Arginine-Ketoisocaproate 3000mg Other Ingredients:
Beta Cyclodextrin, Cephaline, Xanthan, Inulin, Sorbitol, Calcium Phosphate, Magnesium Stearate, Stearic Acid.

The other ingredients are supposed to be carriers that help it get where you want it to go. Sorbitol is an absorbant. The others I can't remember what they do without having to look them up.

If Maxgain sees this post - he may be able to tell you more - he seems to know his chemistry pretty good.

All I know for certain about L-Arginine is that it is the primary ingredeint in all of the NOS, NOX, NO2 types of products. Supposedly help you develop a positive nitrogen balance which helps get better blood flow to the muscles (true or not I don't know). But I do know that just like with any other amino acid - it's very hard to get it past the stomach to the muscles (or anywhere else valuable) without it just getting digested and used like any other food.

[Maxgain]

The effects of arginine are due to its use to produce endothelial nitric oxide which produces vasodilation and thus increased blood flow to the body regions. The theory is increased blood flow = increased nutrient supply.
Arginine also has a great endrocrinological response causing release of growth hormone, insulin, glucagon, and prolactin though its oral effect in this way is still debatable.
for vasodilation effects you will need 9gs a day. Maximum effects are seen with about 20g. Whether this difference is worth it I dont know.

Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate is two Arginine molecules attached to an alpha ketoglutarate. Ketoisocaproate is just another form I presumeby using such forms they look better supposed better delivery utilisation etc etc.

Cephalin is phosphatidylserine it is a naturally-occurring substance that is normally found in cell membranes, including those of nerve cells in the brain.
It is used in Alzheimers.
It is also used as a longevity agent for athletes. It ks as a cortisol suppressant agent. 400 to 800 milligrams (mg) daily during intense training and 100 mg daily during normal training periods should be taken to be effective.

Inulin is digested similar to fibre so its use is most likely to reduce the sugar content needed to be palatable

Xanthan is as inulin

Sorbitol again a nondigestable sugar

Beta cyclodextrin is used as a carrier molecule for the supplement.

The rest are used for the stabilisation and absorption of product.

[Maxgain]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

I'd like to learn more too. I just bought some tonight. Not as a bodybuilding suppliment. It's the missing amino from my oral copaxone I'm making. I just can't tolerate taking those shots any longer. Interesting thing - that drug is made from 4 amino acids. Each of them are actually used as neurotransmitters in the body. Each of them has some CNS protective ability. Each of them is recognized as a foreign protein by the immune system and attacked (in my case this is the goal - give the immune system something to work on besides my CNS). Each of them except for L-Lysine are used as bodybuilding suppliments because they supposedly help the CNS recover or help with vasodilation so you get more blood flow to the muscles. However, from what I've actually read - the dosages on the bottles makes them crap.

I know the oral copaxone was denied approval by the FDA because it didn't work for most people so those of us on it were stuck with taking injections every day. It didn't work because the body recognized the amino acids as incomplete protein and digested them and used them in protein synthesis in the body. So for realy BB use, I suspect it's probably not nearly as good as it's hyped to be. In a big enough dosage, mixed into a liquid, taken on an empty stomach (kind of like those of us who use GABA successfully) some of it may get to where you want it to go.

Unfortunatley your oral form of glatiramer will not work. It operation is not due to the individual aa NT activity but due to the peptides structural resemblance to myelin basic protein
It binds to MHC molecules and thus competes with various myelin antigens for their presentation to T cells.
Oral administration will split the peptide into its individual amino acids and this effect will not be seen.

[rangers97]

ok so the things I got out of this is that you need to take mega doses of it for there to be any kind of positive effect, and that if it helps with nutrient delivery, the best time to use it would be post workout, when nutrient uptake is at its highest? Am I close here?

Are mega doses of it harmful at all?

[.V.]

Originally Posted by Maxgain

Unfortunatley your oral form of glatiramer will not work.

I am afraid you are right about this. There was some discussion of this when I was TEVA's guinea pig on the enteric coated oral form of the drug. This was what they were explaining about the difference in effectiveness in the 20mg injectable, 5mg oral, and 50mg oral - and possible ineffectiveness. After the study was stopped, I learned that I was one of the few that it may have worked for. I had zero exacerbations during the study time - frequent before - about 1 every 1.5 months on average. Serious with permanent damage every 3-4 months. When I switched to the injectable form of the drug I had 1 minor exacerbation approximately 1.5 months and serious about every 5-6 months. I can't take the interferon side effects so it's either go with an oral attempt or go without treatment. The explained that I was in a subgroup who the 50mg that I was actually on (double blind placebo controlled) we found out what group we were in after the study ended. When I could no longer tolerate the side effects of the injectable copaxone, it took forever to finally get someone from Teva to talk to a pharmacist friend who would talk to me. I still can't get the exact amount of the aminos to actually use - that's why I'm experimenting.

My hope is that grinding to powder, taking in liuqid form on an empty stomach will lead to rapid absorbtion. I know - grasping at straws - but hey, if the suppliments actually have some benefit to my training goals...I'll settle for that and be the best looking cripple in town - fighting it every step, every rep of the way.


BTW, I've wondered about some of your posts...your chemical knowledge seems very good. Are you a pharmacist, physician, drug dealer, or something like that? Or someone who just reads too much?

[.V.]

Originally Posted by rangers97

Are mega doses of it harmful at all?

amino acids are the building blocks of protein. I suspect that they are likely just digested anyway. And that excess shouldn't be harmful from what I've read. Anybody who knows more than I do please correct me...you won't hurt my feelings.

[DaRkAnGel]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

amino acids are the building blocks of protein. I suspect that they are likely just digested anyway. And that excess shouldn't be harmful from what I've read. Anybody who knows more than I do please correct me...you won't hurt my feelings.

I really think i may give it a shot regardless and even if i have to mega dose it at its current price if i go 20 g a pop that is 50 total workout days which means roughly 3 months worth for around 25 bucks.

[DaRkAnGel]

O by the way, the bomb digity as far as vasodillators are concerned is citrulline malate right now.

I would get that but its so damn costly that i will just wait until it becomes like creatine and levels out(if it truly is so good).