Pro/cons For Test.and Deca

[Gearhead]

I was reading over my first post and need to revise something. I said i did not like test.... I actually need to elaborate on it..I like test blends..not just a single test..sorry..I think I misunderstood what Jacob was asking.

[galileo]

I am the opposite. I think you can predict your levels far better with a single ester testosterone. Do you know what blends get you? Nada. You get a very very miniscule amount of short-acting esters (which really won't take effect much faster) and a mixture of other lengths. The only positive is that at the end they may help you gradually lower your test rather than a larger crash, but I think that's pushing it.

I think fudo has similar opinions on this matter, maybe even stronger, if he cares to enlighten us.

[Steve]

Copied and pasted from bodybuilding.com -

Testosterone is the prime male androgen in the body, and as such still the best possible mass builder in the world. It has a high risk of side-effects because it readily converts to a more androgenic form (DHT) in androgen responsive tissues and forms estrogen quite easily. But these characteristics also provide it with its extreme anabolic tendencies. On the one hand estrogen increases growth hormone output, glucose utilization, improves immunity and upgrades the androgen receptor, while on the other hand a testosterone/DHT combination is extremely potent at activating the androgen receptor and eliciting major strength and size gains. While not always the most visually appealing result, there is no steroid on earth that packs on mass like testosterone does.

Like testosterone cypionate, enanthate is a single-ester and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. To me, its slightly better value for money than the aforementioned because its ester is only 7 instead of 8 carbons in length. Where that doesn't really change much in terms of release and blood concentration for users who inject on a weekly basis, that does mean that less of the weight is ester and more of it is testosterone. When taking an amount of an esterified steroid, that amount in terms of weight is a combination of the ester and the steroid. Naturally the longer the ester is, the more of the weight it takes up. So its safe to state that 500 mg of enanthate contains more testosterone than does 500 mg of cypionate. Not that this slight difference will be noted on a weekly pattern really, but its enough for me to give it a slight edge if given the choice. Although, as stated with cypionate, your choice between enanthate and cypionate is best based on availability. These are a much better choice than sustanon 250 or omnadren, which are blends of different testosterone esters, due to their irregular release. Nonetheless these versions still appear to be more popular with most users for some reason. Before you compare these to shorter esters under the pretense that even more of the weight would be testosterone, for bulking purposes the release pattern and injection pattern of an enanthate or cypionate is more fitting than that of say, a propionate ester. Enanthate and cypionate are very close in those terms, hence the comparison is possible.

A long-acting testosterone ester may be the best for all your mass-building needs, but its not an easy product to use. Because of the extreme length of action (3-4 weeks) one cannot easily solve occurring problems by simply discontinuing the product, as it will continue to act and aggravate side-effects over extended periods of time. In regards to damage control and post-cycle therapy, some familiarity with the use of ancillary drugs is required prior to using a long-acting testosterone product. Nolvadex and Proviron will come in very handy in such cases and post-cycle HCG and clomid or Nolvadex will be required as well to help restore natural testosterone. Frequency of side-effects is probably highest with this type of product.

While most will tell you it's a waste to not use testosterone, as it will take ages longer to build proper mass, these are all points to take into consideration. Testosterone is a product that is heavily used by beginners and veterans alike and justly so. Those who fear they may never understand the proper use of ancillary drugs, may want to suck it up and invest in some propionate or suspension testosterones instead. These are much shorter acting and easier to control, but they do need to be injected once every two days, whereas this type of ester will impart great gains with a single weekly injection. Something to keep in mind.

Stacking and Use:

Testosterone is the most powerful compound there is, so obviously its perfectly fine to use it by itself. With a long-acting ester like Enanthate doses of 500-1000 mg per week are used with very clear results over a 10 week period. If you've ever seen a man swell up with sheer size, then testosterone was the cause of it. But testosterone is nonetheless often stacked. Due to the high occurrence of side-effects, people will usually split up a stack in testosterone and a milder component in order to obtain a less risky cycle, but without having to give up as much of the gains. Primobolan, Equipoise and Deca-Durabolin are the weapons of choice in this matter.

Deca seems to be the most popular, probably because of its extremely mild androgenic nature. But Deca being one of the highest risks for just about every other side-effects, I probably wouldn't advise it. If Deca is used, generally a dose of 200-400 mg is added to 500-750 mg of testosterone per week. Primobolan is sometimes opted for, and can be handy since it doesn't aromatize, which will make the total level of water retention and fat gain a lot less than with more test or with Deca for example. Unfortunately, its mild nature combined with a lack of estrogen make Primobolan a very poor mass builder. Again, doses of 300-400 mg are used. I would actually suggest a higher dose, but with the current prices for Primo I don't think it would be very popular. My personal preference goes out to Equipoise. Androgenically its not that much stronger than Deca because it has next to no affinity for the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and is only half as androgenic as testosterone. Its twice as strong as Deca, mg for mg, and has a lower occurrence of side-effects. It has some estrogen, but not a whole lot so it actually tends to lean a person out rather than bloat him up as Deca will. It also increases appetite, which promotes gains, and improves aerobic performance, which may be wishful as testosterone normally has an opposite effect.

Of course testosterone Enanthate can be stacked with any number of compounds apart from these, but these make the best match. When stacking with testosterone, one needs to look at what the other compound can bring. Either it has a characteristic that testosterone doesn't have, or its nominally safer. The testosterone will bring all the mass, so adding another steroid to enhance mass alone, is futile. More testosterone is the best remedy for that.

One needs to be familiar with a host of other compounds when using long-acting testosterone esters however. First of all, anti-estrogens. The rate of aromatization of testosterone is quite great, so water retention and fat gain are a fact and gyno is never far off. If problems occur one is best to start on 20 mg of Nolvadex per day and stay on that until problems subside. I wouldn't stay on it for a whole cycle, as it may reduce the gains. In terms of an aromatase blocker, testosterone is one of the few compounds where Proviron may actually be preferred over arimidex. The proviron will not only reduce estrogen and can be used for extended time on a testosterone cycle, it will also bind with great affinity to sex-hormone binding proteins in the blood and will allow for a higher level of free testosterone in the body, thus improving gains. Usually 50-100 mg will suffice, the lower end is preferred for maximal results since estrogen plays a key role in gains, but those more worried about estrogen should opt for a higher dose.

For those worried about androgenic side-effects (hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, deepening of voice), one can utilize the hair loss treatment finasteride. This blocks the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme and stops the conversion of testosterone to the more androgenic compound DHT. I'm not a big fan of this, because DHT reduces estrogenic bloat, increases free levels of testosterone and is a very potent androgen that is 3-4 times stronger than testosterone. Those worried about hair loss however, may want to opt for arimidex as their anti-aromatase, since Proviron is a form of DHT after all.

After a cycle, mainly due to the high aromatization and increased levels of estradiol in the blood after discontinuing, natural testosterone levels will be severely suppressed. This means steps need to be taken to assure the quick return of natural testosterone, or we stand to lose a lot of the gains we made while using testosterone. Since it's a non-toxic, potent mass-builder its mostly used in long 10-12 week cycles. So some testicular shrinkage will have occurred too. Its very important that people see that HCG and Nolvadex/clomid are essential as a post-cycle therapy, and that both are equally important in achieving our goal. HCG injections should be started the last week of the cycle and continued for 3-4 weeks, using 1500-3000 IU every 5-6 days. HCG will act as an alternative to LH and start the endogenous testosterone cycle, thereby increasing testicle size once again. Then about 2 weeks after the last shot of testosterone is given, Nolvadex/Clomid cycle should be started. 40 mg of Nolva or 150 mg of Clomid per day for two weeks, followed by two more weeks with either 20 mg of Nolva or 100 mg of Clomid per day should be adequate. Always remember that HCG is suppressive of natural testosterone itself and should be discontinued at least 2 weeks prior to finishing Nolvadex/Clomid.

[Steve]

the multi-ester

Sustanon 250 is a unique blend of 4 different esters of testosterone. The principle purpose of attaching an ester to a steroid is to make it more lipophillic, so that when injected intra-muscularly it can remain in the adipose tissue longer and is released in the blood-stream over time. The longer an ester, the more lipophillic it is. Sustanon 250 contain 1 short, 1 long and 2 medium length esters that are all delivered over time, which gives a quick release, but a durable one as well. You may think that this is a positive thing, and to patients requiring testosterone therapy this probably is, but to a steroid user its really not.

A steroid user will use a long-acting testosterone and inject it once a week. The end of a week is usually the time when a long-acting (7 or 8 carbon) ester has tapered down to its original level and threatens to drop below that level, giving sub-par amounts of testosterone beyond that point (eventhough the compound stays somewhat active for 3-4 weeks). With sustanon, that equal amount is divided much differently. Imagine a hypothetical situation where one take either 270 mg of a an ester that lasts 6 days, or 270 mg of a blend of different esters, 90 mg each, that release over respectively 2, 4 and 6 days, analog to sustanon. With the first one, an even amount of testosterone is released on each day. With the second one the entire first ester, half the second ester and 1/3rd of the last ester is released within the first two days. The result here is clear : the first two days one gets 165 mg, the next two one gets 75 mg and the last 2 days one gets a mere 30 mg. The levels peak much sooner, and drop off sooner, leaving you with less than adequate androgen levels as the week draws to a close.

So for use as one would use another long-acting testosterone, I find sustanon to be poor value. The price is roughly the same so I really don't see the affinity people seem to have for it. Respectively cypionate and enanthate are much better choices. I can understand the need for a fast-acting component to front-load and kick-start gains, but even then, testoviron (200 mg testosterone enanthate and 50 mg testosterone propionate) is a much better choice. Speaking of front-loading, for this express purpose sustanon may be very suited. One could probably obtain results faster If one were to use 500 mg of sustanon on day 1, then again 5 days later on day 6 and start a cycle of enanthate/cypionate at 500 mg/week on day 11. That avoids the major crash at the end of the week and makes maximum use of the fast acting esters to saturate the system.

As with all testosterones the rate of side-effects is quite high. Risks of androgenic side-effects (hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, deepening of voice) as well as estrogenic side-effects (gyno, water retention, fat gain) are real, and the use of ancillary drugs such as anti-estrogens will most likely be needed. This is something that I urge all users to take into account. Never start any cycle with testosterone without having at least a lot of Nolvadex and a few amps of HCG on hand. Testosterone is not in any way toxic, and should not give a user any problems apart from a high rate of occurrence of standard steroid side-effects.

Stacking and Use:

Because of its long-acting components, sustanon is mostly used as a form of long-acting testosterone. Much like testoviron, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate. I don't find it to be the best choice for this purpose, but obviously I don't determine the trends among bodybuilders. In such use doses of 500 to 1000 mg per week are used in a single injection, with decent results nonetheless. Perhaps because 3 of its esters are notably shorter than enanthate or cypionate, so more of it is actual testosterone and less ester, eventhough the distribution is uneven. Its best use in my opinion is to start off a cycle with, by injecting twice with 5 days space, and then give it another 5 days before starting an 8-10 week cycle of testoviron, enanthate or cypionate. This should allow for more testosterone to build up and results to come much faster.

Again, because of the two medium-length and the long ester, the compound is not very controllable. So when problems occur, simply discontinuing the product is not an option. One needs to be familiar with anti-estrogenic compounds for one. When signs of gyno appear using 20-40 mg/day of the estrogen antagonist Nolvadex or 100-150 mg/day of its weaker counterpart clomid until a few days after symptoms disappear is advised. The best way to avoid such problems is running proviron or arimidex, aromatase blockers, alongside the product. In most instances I give preference to arimidex, but when concerning the use of testosterone Proviron at 50-100 mg per day may be wiser since it frees up more testosterone.

Of course the simultaneous use of an aromatase blocker will compromise your gains since it literally stops estrogen from being made. Androgenic problems can be reduced to some extent by the use of finasteride, which will stop the conversion of testosterone to its more androgenic component DHT. This may alleviate aggravated hair loss and prostate problems somewhat. Again, the blocking of such a conversion may decrease the gains made and will in any case heighten the risk for estrogenic side-effects, since DHT acts as an anti-estrogen. Proviron is also a form of DHT, so people worried about androgenic side-effects should then naturally opt for arimidex over proviron when they choose an aromatase blocker as well.

Sustanon stacks well with any compound. Usually testosterone is always the stronger compound in the stack, so whenever you stack something alongside its usually because the drug has certain characteristics. Usually this means it will be a milder drug that will allow the user a milder cycle with lower occurrence of side-effects than simply using more testosterone, without having to give up all of the potential gains. Deca-Durabolin, Equipoise and Primobolan are some of the more fitting compounds for this purpose. But naturally the king of all mass-builders stacks well with almost anything.

[galileo]

You sure do love to copy and paste.

[Steve]

I sure do! At least I usually say where I got it from. Some people......no names....just copy and paste as it is their own work.



Steve

[galileo]

true dat.

[Deroc13]

what is deca dck exactly

[lew007]

while using deca on its own your natural tesosterone levels get suppressed,this happens with all steroids!if you have no testosterone being produced,how do u expect to get an erection?this problem is easily solved by either using proviron with deca only cycles or stacking the deca with test,when stacking it is advised to use slightly more test then deca to prevent deca-dick!
as for recovery,not everyone reacts badly and crashes form it,i have done 3 deca/sustenon cycle in the last year and with proper pct have had no problems!

Not everyone suffers from deca dick, either. Personal chemistry will cause different reactions to the drug. Some guys get an incredible uptick in their sex drive while on deca only. It all depends on the individual.

[lew007]

good point iron man but i dont really know anyone who has used deca without test!i have only read a few horror stories on diffrent forums about it!but every1 reacts diffrently to things.

I think a lot of the horror stories come around because guys use insane amounts of deca. When someone starts pumping 400 mg of deca into their ***cheeks per week side effects are almost guaranteed to pop up.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by IronMan

I think a lot of the horror stories come around because guys use insane amounts of deca. .

Deca is an extremely potent steroid.....too much of it is gonna screw you up....