recommendations, PLS, for the love of crikey!!!!

[threenorns]

okay, just spent nearly a half-hour arguing with my workout partner (i'm training him) about supplements. one thing i should mention: bill is a sweetheart, but has issues that make him quite gullible and VERY stubborn.

he's improving every week, but it's still not fast enough for him. he is *convinced* that he won't get any better without fancy supplements, even though he's just started and can't expect instant results. i, on the other hand, am very, very cautious. i never try anything without researching it exhaustively and would prefer to keep away from artificial supports and build 100% naturally until we plateau and then start introducing them carefully while monitoring results. i've started him on a complete multivitamin/mineral, an extra B complex for stress relief and energy boosting, and creatine because from what i've read, it would appear to be beneficial without too many potential side effects. that's not good enough, apparently, because he was talking last night with someone else "who's really built!!! you should see his chest!!!".

i have no practical experience with supplements except for multivitamins and minerals because when i worked with my trainer many, many years ago, he was 100% natural and never used anything either. "richard" won "most ripped" in his first amateur competition and if he hadn't've overtrained his delts to vanishing point, he might've placed top 3 overall.

the guy bill was talking to, "Fred", has been working out consistently for the past 17 years, is in the armed forces, and has been competing in amateur competitions for over a decade but has never won anything. he told bill that he needs to take a handful of pills twice a day and some kind of "special" supplement (in shake form) after every workout or there'll never be any improvement. he refused to tell bill what it was, saying it was only available to the military, which i'm 99% sure is utter BS since he told bill he could get it for him "for a price". i don't consider "Fred" a viable authority because the guy's an AH with an ego to match his physique: overdeveloped and too big - the reason he never wins is because he's all about size, "symmetry is for [insert rude name for alternative lifestyle men here]".

sooooooooooooooo.............. to keep the peace, which supplement do you recommend i introduce next and why? i was thinking flax/fish oil, but i doubt that will produce the kind of results he's wanting unless i introduce a placebo effect.

something that meets the following criteria:

• permanent results (so he won't be stuck taking it the rest of his life)
• very safe to use
• natural (no chemical compounds, pls)
• legal (no steroids or HGH and the like)
• will help him with increased energy and/or power
• reasonably priced (no point paying $50, $100, or more a month, since he can't afford it on his low-income wage)

i've gone through this board and i'm just terribly confused now because all the ones i thought promising have people arguing for and against and all the arguments sound valid (except for the ones from the commercial sites, you know who you are). going through the internet is even worse because of all the crap pages and don't even get me started on the publications. if i buy "x" magazine, they're raving about the same substance "y" magazine is lambasting while "z" refuses to comment either way.

:confused:

[cursor]

Originally Posted by threenorns

he needs to take a handful of pills twice a day and some kind of "special" supplement (in shake form) after every workout or there'll never be any improvement.

Somebody's full of it, aren't they?

While I don't recall the current physical condition of your workout partner (judging by the title of this thread, his name must be "crikey" ), I can assure you (and him) that very positive results are possible without taking ANY supplements. The honest idea behind the need for supplements is to make up for a deficiency in one's diet. Any and all nutrition that the body genuinely needs can be had by making quality food choices ... and supplying it in a timely fashion.

The only supplement that my wife and I use is protein powder (a couple tablespoons per day). Hell, we don't even use creatine, which I recognize CAN offer some benefit (but it's certainly no magic powder).

Again, I don't know how far your buddy wants to go with respect to physical development, but I've had moderately positive results from simply moving the metal and eating right.

[threenorns]

he WANTS schwarzenegger, but he'll probably end up with something more refined and leaner - his waist and hips are proportionately much smaller although the rate at which his chest and shoulders are building is surprising me. i had him pegged for an ectomorph - when i first met him, he was 5'11" and 135 at 19yrs of age - but that was way wrong, judging by the rate at which he's packing it on his delts, lol!

foodwise, he's doing very well - he eats three times a day, but trust me: it takes him a full hour to eat every meal because he has to chew every mouthful 100 times (what he was taught growing up). he's cut out the processed starch (Mr Noodles, KD, white bread, white rice) and sugar and switched to whole-grain alternatives. he's also increased the proportion of quality protein in the form of tuna, (bigtime!), chicken, steaks, lamb, fresh salmon, and eggs. he's sensitive to dairy, which had me asking him why he was surprised the whey protein he was sucking back was having some rather serious arguments with his gut.

<shrugs> i dunno - maybe i'll just give him some gingko biloba capsules, not tell him what they are, and ask him to let me know how they work.

[Cort]

Whey protein and creatine, but you don't NEED them.

[DaRkAnGel]

ZMA is a good test booster if he is deficient in anything. It's pretty cheap... but unless he is pretty active he probably isn't deficit in any of these vitamins.

Flax oil, fish oil, etc. are mainly for your joints although ive heard of some bodybuilding properties that would make them desirable. I take these along wit glucosamine for my joints because of the frequency of my workouts, not to get buff.

Creatin never did anything for me, but for some it works really well. The science behind it makes sense so that is one option worth considering.

Your number one option is to take a PWO shake. Nothing beats eating food in really large quantities, always remember that .

[abarlament]

Either ZMA or creatine. Both safe, and you can tell him creatine will help him pack on LBM (don't tell him it's just water though!), and the ZMA ups his testosterone, also tell him a side effect is crazy dreams

[threenorns]

ZMA ups his testosterone

ummmm... you mean, like increased sex drive, lower impulse control, less emotional restraint, and increased propensity to start loud arguments with strange men who might look at him the wrong way?

maybe we won't go there after, all: i have a hard enough time keeping the fillies off his tail and his mouth in neutral as it is without having to deal with a 27 year old reliving his teenage years, lol!

[Lift2Live]

Originally Posted by threenorns

ummmm... you mean, like increased sex drive, lower impulse control, less emotional restraint, and increased propensity to start loud arguments with strange men who might look at him the wrong way?

LOL! ZMA is just mineral support; zinc, magnesium and B6. It won't cause quite as dramatic an increase as it may sound. It can "help" but it isn't going to turn him into a raging ball of hormones, heh! Either way, the guy needs to understand that you can accomplish ALOT without any supplementation. He sounds like he's bought into the muscle magazine hype whirlwind. If the diet is fine tuned for his bodytype and he's lifting hard n' heavy, he should make awesome gains just from that. If he wants Arnold's body, he'll have to start thinking about steroids first.

[threenorns]

lol!!!! oh, okay -- cool.

he doesn't read the magazines (he can't), but he's bought into the hype told him by other "experts" like fred. i'm just counting his lucky stars he called me back in instead of trying some idiot whose only claim to expertise is big muscles! you know the type: the ones that fling'n'slign 200lbs for a bicep curl while their upper body whips fore and aft like the mast of a clipper ship in a high gale and they brag about the resulting bruising on their quads.

[Lift2Live]

Just keep being that rational voice in his ear. He needs someone to disuade him from the yahoos in the gym that are telling him that the only thing that will make him grow is a military secret and the like. That's just plain sad. lol Keep telling him that most important thing he can do is to learn everything he can about diet and how the body functions. Once he understands how everything works, he'll come to realize how silly this other stuff people are talking about is.

[threenorns]

yeah... need thicker brake pads, too.

he does get it, once i manage to thump through his head that there are NO magic pills, NO wonder drugs (legal, anyway), and NOTHING that will do the job other than solid work and technique because if there were, we'd ALL be thin and fabulously fit!

[Lift2Live]

What I wouldn't give to be fabulously anything! lol

If he really had to take something though, Creatine is probably the absolute most effective thing i've ever taken, strength went up pretty dramatically. Just so's you know i'm not anti supplement, just with most of it. Tribulus is another test. booster but i'm not sure at his age if he even needs one. I still wouldn't suggest too much until he has been lifting for a little while and comfortable with the routine and his form.

[threenorns]

okay: creatine and ZMA it will be for him, double-layer asbestos brake shoes for me.

i'm like you: not into supplementation as long as it's NORMAL stuff and not something you get from the ass end of a farm animal.

[Cort]

Rump roast anyone?

Whey protein is the only other thing I might recommend, but it wont kill anyone if they eat 7oz of chicken/turkey breast instead.

[threenorns]

ah, but rump roast is nourishment, not supplementation. there seems to be a local problem developing, where animal hormones being sold as bodybuilding supplements at the local schools and that s--t's just SCARY!