Supplements???

[F_Mac]

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

well they really are not random but that is not the point.....and one of which trained bo jackson......

Bo Jackson? wow........really? OMG.......he must know EVERYTHING about strength training then!

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

but either way thats not the point either.. and as far as being a troll im the one who started this thread.......

trolls start lots of threads what's your point?

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

and i never said that it does not work i said that you will piss or **** half of that out.....and as far as it being some sort of myth thats wrong too.....

sources? You can make up **** as much as you like, just because you say it doesn't make it true. I'm sure I do lose a little of it, but by taking in a little more than I need I guarantee that I have the proper amino acids available for muscle & tissue building.

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

because if what welch said was true you would gain a pound a day...well more like half a pound ...

protein is used also for tissue repair, and maintaining the muscle you already have. Your body turns over muscle tissue at a very high rate. Like Max said.....a small portion goes towards building new muscle, the rest is for keeping what's already there and keeping the body functional. Protein can also be used for energy if on a low carb diet, all the more reason to eat a bunch of it.

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

and the grams are to be based of your lean body weight... not your over all...

you can base it on either, and simply adjust it as required to meet your goals. Those guidelines are just that......guidelines to get you in the right ball park

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

and really you are trying to say that you need ten times the protein of a normal person wow you must be something... i bet you are a sight......i mean think about it...you might use half that protein the rest will turn or fat or you will **** out.....

So you're eating 40g of protein a day? I think you are the "sight" son. Again..........I am currently eating high protein, as are several of the people above who already posted and it is working for me, and for them.

Have you ever tried it yourself or are you just parroting what everyone over at bodybuilding.com has been telling you?

If you shut your mouth and listen for a while you might just learn something around here. If you just want to make baseless arguments with a bunch of people that have significant collective knowledge about training, eating, supplements, and all other things health related..........I suggest you leave.

[.V.]

Guys, just a reminder. Let's keep it friendly. It is easy to forget if we feel we are being attacked or if someone seems to be talking out of their...nevermind. There are of course multiple approaches and we can all learn from one another, but we can't call someone elses approach retarded just because it's different from our own.

We all do what we do, how we are doing it for one reason and one reason only. Because we think it is the right way. Well, there are many right ways for many different goals. I've adapted my own approach many times partly from the things I've learned here on this board. Sometimes because something seemed to make great sense, sometimes just because it sounded interesting and I thought I'd see how it worked for me.

So if we are open to learning new things...great. If we wish to debate...even better (I love debates). Let's just remember to keep it nice.

Thanks.

[JAKewagner]

I see what you are all trying to say, but really 400 grams is almost a pound. So if you dont piss or **** it out then where does it go?? Because if you did not then you would gain that much weight per day and I really dont get where you said that I said it would not work I said it does. 400 grams is not needed....and yes I have been there done the 400 grams thing ,and I am really not slight I am 6 foot 1 and weigh 220, and in great shape.So all I said from the get go is it is not needed and I still am saying that, and as far as the bo jackson thing you said that you got your info for people that have trained PEOPLE. So all I was saying is that it really does not matter. My information at least come people,from my own study and working out When I was a kid I was skinny I weighed 160 and was 6 foot 1,and I was able to gain 60 pounds;very little fat.from when I was 18 to when I was 21 I think those are some good gains,so to all of you that are just sitting there trying to dictate things down to me you really need to remember that everyone is not the same,but there is one thing that is the same for everyone is that you don’t need that much protein(except maybe Ronnie Coleman)

what is protein??? Do you even really know?....and what is a carb ? And what is a cal??(mac) you most likely dont know but im sure before you repost you will wiki them... witch is a good thing i want you to know then maybe we really can have a debate....and what does a doc know? He only went to school for 8 years studying the human body...im sure you did them same....(This is mostly for Mac)



P.S. it really funny making fun of me im sure about the piss thing... well I guess you really don’t piss out the hole protein just the amino acids.... the other part just can collect in you blatter or your kiddeny and turn into stones....


P.P.S.and I m sorry if anyone feels like I am attacking them, because i am really not. but Mac for some reason is getting his little panties in a twist....really we are all here to... get info and here what others have to say. and weather I think what you say is right or whether you think what I say is right that’s not the point.... we are just trying to get another’s point of view... so chill out everyone just because I think that some of the things that you say are wrong and for me they maybe....it is just an opinion....

[CF-OC_gal]

Humm a reminder about what welch said about debating.

Guys, just a reminder. Let's keep it friendly. It is easy to forget if we feel we are being attacked or if someone seems to be talking out of their...nevermind.

Just a little arithmatic correction to be noted when calculating what constitutes a potential pound of bodyweight.

One pound requires 3500 excess calories from the food we take in. Although 400 grams may be almost a pound of protein source, it is only worth 1600 calories(4 cals per gram) therefore it is not equvilent to a pound of additional body weight if consumed.

[.V.]

Yeah bro, I teach anatomy and physiology. Which of those do you need defined and I'll fill you in. Oh yeah, FM knows what they all mean. Because of the type of diet he's on, he has a good understanding of the process of protein conversion to carbohydrate. Sure there is excess, but on the kind of diet he's on it's a requirement.

With normal kidneys, protein really isn't anything to worry about. If you have kidney dysfunction, then gout is a possiblity from excess. If you have liver dysfunction, you certainly want to keep your protein pretty low.

For a normal healthy guy, nothing wrong with it. Some of us actually get too fat if we are getting more of our calories from carbs than protein. Time to read a few endocrinology lessons and learn a bit about the insulin response, negative feedback system, insulin sensitivity, and insulin resistance.

There is nothing to debate really, the body works the way it works.

But remember, if you DO wish a debate the rule at DF is "attack the issue, not the person". That's a rule from our admins and we all have to live with it.

Oh yeah, about the "peeing it off" thing. When I need to cut, I have to do it very low carb because I am somewhat insulin resistant. When I eat enough carbs to encourage optimal growth it worsens to the point that all my DM symptoms return. When my DMII symptoms return, I'll low carb a while to get them under control again...this is how I avoid having to live on daily insulin injections. Ever done a true low carb diet? The kind where you are living on about 60% fat 35% protein and only very few carbs from green veggies? You will honestly believe that any day you are going to pass a kidney. You pee that much. It's water loss from carb depletion though. You are new so don't know me yet or my health trials or the things I have to do at times. You don't understand that I can afford to experiment on my own body without risk of long term damage. Therefore you couldn't be expected to get the joke. For that, I apologize because I can see that it did appear to be making fun of you.

[Maxgain]

Ok lets make this clear

Under non pathological circumstances calories are not pissed out.

This is regardless of macronutrient ratios and the surplus intaken.

If you have anything else to argue post it but the above is truly not for debate.

[minime]

excess protein is turned into energy, just like carbs and fat. If you ate 3000 calories of protein and your maintenace was 2000 then you wouldn't p*ss out the excess, it would somehow be converted to fat or muscle depending on how your body metabolises it (if you are training with weights heavily, your muscles will more than likely get the bulk of it)

Brat, I think the 3500 number is what is needed to gain a pound of fat. Gaining a pound of muscle does not necessarily need this amount of calories, at least this is what i thought.

[F_Mac]

my "panties" are far from being in a twist. I'm just attempting to educate you that high protein works for the majority of people who attempt it.

You're 6'1, 220, good, that's some decent size assuming you are reasonably lean. If you are doing fine on a moderate protein diet then I say keep doing it by all means, don't let me sway you.

I could probably do fine and maintain my current weight and strength on the same kind of diet, however, that's not my goal. I want to be bigger and stronger and for that, big eating is required, protein specifically since that is ultimately what muscle is made of. Carbs are great, but the amount that an individual can take in without getting fat will vary (greatly sometimes) because of their insulin sensitivity. Mine is fairly crappy so my carbs need to stay in check as much as possible.

Like Maxgain stated, you do not piss out excess calories, they all go "somewhere".....either for maintaining the body's systems, building muscle, or fat storage.....it's that simple. So if I'm not getting fat eating 350-400g of protein per day (actually, i'm slowly leaning out and getting stronger) then how am I wasting protein? If/when I am attempting to gain maximum strength, i'll bump it up to 400-450g, with my calories totaling around 4000 or so. And I will gain a bit of fat and a ton of strength.....so again, how is it being wasted?

Look dude, I post on a few other boards where there are many members who's protein intake makes mine look like that of a 10 year old girl. These are big, strong dudes and they got that way by eating their way to the top.

If you don't want to believe me that it works for me and many others I suggest you visit some serious strength training boards and check out the diet/nutrition section, then go look at the training journals and tell me that high protein doesn't work for these guys.

[JAKewagner]

Originally Posted by Brat

Humm a reminder about what welch said about debating.


Just a little arithmatic correction to be noted when calculating what constitutes a potential pound of bodyweight.

One pound requires 3500 excess calories from the food we take in. Although 400 grams may be almost a pound of protein source, it is only worth 1600 calories(4 cals per gram) therefore it is not equvilent to a pound of additional body weight if consumed.

i no how much cals make a pound... but you guys are saying that you dont....discharge any of the protein you take in .... and for that to be true you would gain a pound a day

[JAKewagner]

Originally Posted by minime

excess protein is turned into energy, just like carbs and fat. If you ate 3000 calories of protein and your maintenace was 2000 then you wouldn't p*ss out the excess, it would somehow be converted to fat or muscle depending on how your body metabolises it (if you are training with weights heavily, your muscles will more than likely get the bulk of it)

Brat, I think the 3500 number is what is needed to gain a pound of fat. Gaining a pound of muscle does not necessarily need this amount of calories, at least this is what i thought.

once again i no 3500 gains a pound but if you take in 400 grams (almost pound) and and it stays in your body you would gain thaqt much weight....please explain this.... because you guys like to just talk down to poeple instead of trying to explain what you ARE TRYING TO SAY... witch you have not done very well...thus far

[Lady C]

Originally Posted by JAKewagner

once again i no 3500 gains a pound but if you take in 400 grams (almost pound) and and it stays in your body you would gain thaqt much weight....please explain this.... because you guys like to just talk down to poeple instead of trying to explain what you ARE TRYING TO SAY... witch you have not done very well...thus far

This 3500 calories is in EXCESS of what you burn. So if you are not gaining then it suggest you are burning it.

[JAKewagner]

Originally Posted by F-Mac

my "panties" are far from being in a twist. I'm just attempting to educate you that high protein works for the majority of people who attempt it.

You're 6'1, 220, good, that's some decent size assuming you are reasonably lean. If you are doing fine on a moderate protein diet then I say keep doing it by all means, don't let me sway you.

I could probably do fine and maintain my current weight and strength on the same kind of diet, however, that's not my goal. I want to be bigger and stronger and for that, big eating is required, protein specifically since that is ultimately what muscle is made of. Carbs are great, but the amount that an individual can take in without getting fat will vary (greatly sometimes) because of their insulin sensitivity. Mine is fairly crappy so my carbs need to stay in check as much as possible.



Like Maxgain stated, you do not piss out excess calories, they all go "somewhere".....either for maintaining the body's systems, building muscle, or fat storage.....it's that simple. So if I'm not getting fat eating 350-400g of protein per day (actually, i'm slowly leaning out and getting stronger) then how am I wasting protein? If/when I am attempting to gain maximum strength, i'll bump it up to 400-450g, with my calories totaling around 4000 or so. And I will gain a bit of fat and a ton of strength.....so again, how is it being wasted?

Look dude, I post on a few other boards where there are many members who's protein intake makes mine look like that of a 10 year old girl. These are big, strong dudes and they got that way by eating their way to the top.

If you don't want to believe me that it works for me and many others I suggest you visit some serious strength training boards and check out the diet/nutrition section, then go look at the training journals and tell me that high protein doesn't work for these guys.

like i have been saying from the beginning it does work...all i have been saying and will keep on saying in that you dont need thAT MUCH....and if it is not used it i wasted.... and yes you do **** out cals your body can not absorb them fast enough.... if you take in alot at one time.... i do high protien but i get all mine from hole foods ... but my proten in take is about 200...i think is just about right for me....and as far as it is ok because he is heathly that does not mean he will always be heathly(not wishing anything) and it will not or can not turn into a prob later the road....... one of the reasons im not for supplements or that high of protein... is because i been there done that......and i was also put in bed for a whole year because i was heathly and then with out knowing it i become unheathly....so my high protein nearing killed me....so as far as telling everyone to do this if they want to get big is BAD..you may not think that is.... what you are doing but.. really it is what do you think a 17 year old kid that is reading this thread would think..he would think that 400 grams is the only way...... because i listen to people like you before and i got nearly killed....you can say whatever you want but i have seen the worst part of that kind of eatting ands supplementing.....and it cost me alot... it ripped blood vesal in my brain....made me almost blind....yes all because of high protein... and i was alot bigger then 238 or so...(no i dont think this will happen to everyone .. but i no for a fact that it can happen)..and i no that all of you are where you are and you are doing good with it but dont tell people that it is the only way to get bigger and stronger....my point is that no one knows that they are heathly enough or not to start some thing like that..... but from the way you guys say it and permote it....you are not docs but the way you dictate this stuff down like you no everthing there is to no about it....when really you only no the good part ...there for you are being one sided .. i have been to both parts the bad and the good .....and it really is not worth it....you no the none stop bloody nose the blindness the head achs... all of it hit me all at once i did not have time to go get cheaked out...because as we all no it can make your BP shoot up....(not in everyone)then when that happens and it goes really high without you knowing for along period of time...(and it is not as easy for you to notice as you would like) it will rip apart the inside of your body....your heart your brain your liver.... eyes all of it .....so my point is this it is not needed for everyone to get big and strong.... and for some it can be very bad.... but for others it can be great... or maybe only great for a while(like with me)...so what i have been saying is that there are alot of ways you can go... to get big and strong and everyone ones body does not work the same..so please do not dictate this stuff to everyone who says they want to be big and strong.....you really dont no what it can do...

[.V.]

JW, digestion, metabolism, used for muscle synthesis, used for fuel. Then the byproducts (waste) from those processes are what we excrete.

If we kept everything we took in, I'd have met my goal of being the stay puft marshmallow man by now instead of struggling for every pound.

Hmm, let's see what did I eat yesterday. 2 slices of ham with a cup of egg whites and a cup of grits. Two chicken breasts, 1.5 cups of beans, 1.5 cups of corn. A steak, a baked potato. Six cups of milk, six scoops of whey, three bananas. 1.5 gallons of water, a 20 ounce diet mountain dew, a pot of coffee...

Yeah, that's about it probably around 4200-4300 calories. If this was in excess of what I used for fuel to make my body function, repair muscles that I trashed day before yesterday, have energy to make it through my day, then whatever was left over will be stored. Hopefully as muscle, maybe as fat. Not likely to be more than an ounce or two stored though. This is simply because most of it was used.

[JAKewagner]

Originally Posted by Lady C

This 3500 calories is in EXCESS of what you burn. So if you are not gaining then it suggest you are burning it.

holy crap that does not explain anything..... please explain in detail where and how the stuff gets burned and where does the 400 grams go if they do not get ****ted out... and what is poo made of please explain

[JAKewagner]

Originally Posted by a_welch503

JW, digestion, metabolism, used for muscle synthesis, used for fuel. Then the byproducts (waste) from those processes are what we excrete.

If we kept everything we took in, I'd have met my goal of being the stay puft marshmallow man by now instead of struggling for every pound.

Hmm, let's see what did I eat yesterday. 2 slices of ham with a cup of egg whites and a cup of grits. Two chicken breasts, 1.5 cups of beans, 1.5 cups of corn. A steak, a baked potato. Six cups of milk, six scoops of whey, three bananas. 1.5 gallons of water, a 20 ounce diet mountain dew, a pot of coffee...

Yeah, that's about it probably around 4200-4300 calories. If this was in excess of what I used for fuel to make my body function, repair muscles that I trashed day before yesterday, have energy to make it through my day, then whatever was left over will be stored. Hopefully as muscle, maybe as fat. Not likely to be more than an ounce or two stored though. This is simply because most of it was used.

there we go now we are getting some where.. now i can see what you are trying to say......so you would have to poo some of it out??byproducts none of witch are protein??....well bodys can only take in so much cals at once right..(weather they come from carbs fat or protein).. that is why you can take laxatives a loose weight...so if you eat 1000 at once you take them all in or will you carp some out???