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Old 15-Jul-04, 08:05 AM   #16
CliffStamp
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Who has every argued that eating an apple and an egg is problematic. The amount of sugar in an apple sized piece of fruit is ~15 grams, or 60 calories. You could even eat this on Atkins induction. The questions typically that are asked is can you eat much larger quantities of fruit, by themselves, ignoring that fruits in general provide little protein and fat and are very high in simple sugars.

This is why it is illogical to advocate a low GI diet, and avoidance of simple sugars and then at the same time suggest lots of fruit. Now if you want to advocate simple sugars as being good for you, then yes, fruits would be a great way to achieve that in bulk.

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Old 15-Jul-04, 10:29 AM   #17
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The glycemic index represents only part of the picture. As CliffStamp suggests, it's the sum of nutritional concerns that determine the effectiveness of one's diet ... not just single component. Smart mixing of foods can promise a controlled insulin response. If you're eating a high-GI food (and you're not looking for an insulin spike), then offset the balance by also eating some low-GI food(s). Here is an example of a refreshing and nourishing shake that my wife makes using our VitaMix blender:
07p 02c 01f 00x - 0.25 cu cottage cheese, low-fat
03p 04c 00f 00x - 0.25 cu yogurt, plain, non-fat
01p 13c 02f 02x - 2.20 oz banana (about 1/2 a medium fruit)
01p 12c 00f 04x - 6.00 oz fresh strawberries
02p 00c 03f 03x - 1.50 tb flax seed meal
12p 00c 00f 00x - 0.50 sc whey protein isolate
00p 00c 00f 00x - 8.00 oz water___________________
26p 31c 06f 09x = 233 calories

p-protein :: c-carbohydrate :: f-fat :: x-fiber
ts-teaspoon tb-tablespoon cu-cup oz-ounce ea-each sc-scoop
Of the 31 grams of carbohydrate content, 22 grams are sugars (18 of which come from the fruit). When the sugars from fruit are evaluated, we can see just how much fructose is involved:
banana__strawberry
_ 1.41 _ + _ 0.21 ___ = 1.62 grams - 10% sucrose
_ 2.94 _ + _ 3.50 ___ = 6.44 grams - 41% glucose (dextrose)
_ 0.01 _ + _ 0.00 ___ = 0.01 grams - 00% maltose
_ 3.18 _ + _ 0.07 ___ = 3.24 grams - 21% starch
_ 0.01 _ + _ 4.29 ___ = 4.29 grams - 28% fructose
All values, of course are estimates and will vary depending on the specific quality of the food that you're using and the freshess of the produce. The specific volume of food (and balance of macronutrients) should be smartly balanced against your body's needs at that particular time of day (a function of your activity schedule).

Note that by adding flax seed meal to the beverage, insulin response can be modified. Play with fiber, fat, and low-GI foods to moderate the rate of digestion.

For the next meal, rather than focus on fruit, a quality leafy salad might be in order (add some sliced cucumber and fresh tomatoes). For a quality balance, top your salad with some slices of freshly baked skinless chicken breast. Slice some avocado on it ... or sprinkle some pine nuts to add some quality fat. Mixing up your food will make meals more interesting and provide a reasonable variety for best nutrition.
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Last edited by cursor; 15-Jul-04 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 15-Jul-04, 11:22 AM   #18
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So what types of carbs will provide a controlled release of carbs to the body and thus keeping your metablosm primed? Is that to say that eating 100 calories of raisins over three hours is better than eating and apple, because the raisins are high in glucose while apples are high in fructose and spreading them out will offset the high GI?
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Old 15-Jul-04, 11:29 AM   #19
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Arnt raisins a fruit and hence high in fuctose?
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Old 15-Jul-04, 11:29 AM   #20
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Very generally speaking, vegetables that are dense in dietary fiber and in quality micronutrients while being low in calories is where you want to focus your carb intake. Add some fruit, a moderate amount of whole grain foods, quality monounsaturated fats, and a balanced volume of worthwhile protein, and you'll be moving along nicely.
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Old 15-Jul-04, 11:31 AM   #21
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I've been eating raisins and banana's post workout to spike insulin, should I use something else.

Also if I were to use a natural sweetener (such as in coffee) what would be the ideal, fructose, glucose of sucrose (a mix of the two)
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Old 15-Jul-04, 12:00 PM   #22
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1/4 cup (unpacked) of raisins will give you about 100 calories:

1.1p 27.6c 0.2f 1.1x

22 grams of simple sugars (49% of which is fructose ... that's nearly 11 grams).
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Old 15-Jul-04, 02:23 PM   #23
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OK, I want to make sure I understand this (don't worry, this won't be long).

Liver glycogen is used for your whole body- so it would deplete at more of a constant rate, while muscle glycogen is used for your muscles.

So basically, if you have 1 piece of fruit several times (no more than 4) a day then you're probably OK, but if you consumed it all at once, that would be bad since you would overload your liver's glycogen storage capacity and it would be turned to fat.

I understand (partially) how muscle glycogen storing workes, but want to know how liver storage works. Thanks!

-Tim
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Old 15-Jul-04, 02:34 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbuchman
I've been eating raisins and banana's post workout to spike insulin, should I use something else. Also if I were to use a natural sweetener (such as in coffee) what would be the ideal, fructose, glucose of sucrose (a mix of the two)
I like fruit in my post-workout liquid meal because it's so refreshing (plus I get a good micronutrient array, including fiber), not because it'll spike my insulin levels. I'm beyond the point of feeling that's an important point. In fact, my wife and I are now adding flaxseed meal to increase quality dietary fat and fiber.

Consider having your coffee "sweetened" by the cream that you use. That's what we do.
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Old 16-Jul-04, 08:15 AM   #25
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Yes, your liver has a small capacity to store glycogen (~100 grams) and unless you are low carbing, this is usually close to full, thus if you eat significant amounts of fructose it quickly surpasses your livers ability to store it as glycogen and its gets turned into fats and cholesterol. Even worse it gets turned into LDL, imbalancing the cholesterol ratios, this is why its is completely inconsistent to avoid saturated fats because they raise cholesterol (both types equally, and not all saturated fats do this anyway), and recommend eating lots of fruits which raise blood TG levels and imbalance cholesterol levels.

Note if you are doing extreme physical activity, like rock climbing, this can't happen because you will deplete liver glycogen at such a rapid rate that the fructose will simply be used to refill it. This doesn't mean of course it is the ideal food to eat, as it can't refill muscle glycogen which is what you would want to be happening, and since yoru muscles can store several times the capacity of your liver, you would want a higher glucose / fructose ratio than is found in most fruits.

It also comes down to the total amount of carbs you are eating, if you are eating low carb in general, then you could easily eat ten apples a day and just have it refill your liver of glycogen, but again this would be a really poor carb choice because it is a huge bottleneck for transport to the muscles, we simply have not evolved to eat large amounts of fructose.

-Cliff
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Old 17-Jul-04, 12:25 PM   #26
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Thanks, I think I get it now...

I took a look at the USDA website and fruits like oranges and apples aren't even that high in fructose. An orange has more sucrose than fructose, and apples have not too much fructose as well. I think lots think that all the sugar in fruit is fructose, which isn't true...

-Tim
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Old 19-Jul-04, 07:54 AM   #27
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Sucrose is half fructose.

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Old 19-Jul-04, 11:18 AM   #28
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so what is the ideal carb (whole food) to refill muscle glycogen.
What is the ideal carb to keep you metabolism up without spiking insulin? (by itself without adding fat, protien or fiber)

How do starches fit into this whole HI LOW GI, liver muscle picture? Are all non fiber, non sugar carbs starches? Are all starches created equal, what about the other sugars?

What happens to excess glucose when muscle and liver glycogen are full? Except for the potential bottle neck at the liver (it must go through the liver to get the muscles) why is fructose so inferior to glucose.

Last edited by rbuchman; 19-Jul-04 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 19-Jul-04, 12:43 PM   #29
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Carb loading is mainly a myth, except for extreme endurance athletes, normal meals will carb load just fine. The only people who really need to get concerned about this are marathon class athletes, who put such a drain on their bodies that normal foods would not digest nearly fast enough.

Starches are just sugar chains, they can be very long or very short, thus complex carbs, ie. starches covers a broad range of substances. The longer they are in general the slower they break down.

When liver and muscle glycogen are full, excess carbs just turn to TG's and cholesterol.

Fructose is so inferior because it can not refill muscle glycogen, which is the majority of your stored glycogen and thus just turns to TG's and imbalances LDL cholesterol levels.

-Cliff
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Old 19-Jul-04, 02:40 PM   #30
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question is still what carb by itself (without fat or fiber) will replenish muscle glycogen without spiking insulin?
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