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Old 13-Jul-04, 01:47 PM   #16
gymrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cursor
There are traditional methods of "bulking" and "cutting" that carry with them serious drawbacks and limitations. You may want to consider adopting more scientific techniques that focus on short-term/immediate body reponses to stimulus (nutrition and exercise).

For starters: concurrent muscle-building & fat-burning

Want more?
Okay, let me see if I'm getting this right. It's possible to gain strength and lose fat at the same time but the muscle gains aren't going to be as evident because fat loss is also occurring... is that correct? I'm female and looking to be stronger, but I'm probably more concerned with fat loss at this point. I'm still hitting my strength training hard and consistantly and I'm definitely seeing progress. It was just confusing to me to read that I can't lose fat and build muscle at the same time... My purpose in strength training is to be stronger and also develop more LBM, thus increasing my metabolism, etc. That's what I was trying to understand.
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Old 13-Jul-04, 02:49 PM   #17
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I have been doing both simultaneously. It is slower but does this look like it is working?
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Old 13-Jul-04, 02:53 PM   #18
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Muscle will only grow so fast. Ideally, you want to develop muscle at that rate, while minimizing fat-gain.

Fat-loss will only happen at a some maximal rate. Ideally, you want to lose fat at that rate, while minimizing muscle-loss.

The rate of each of these phases will vary depending on your specific body. Through nutritional timing you can gain muscle, then lose a little fat ... then gain muscle, then lose a little fat ... on a more compact rotation than is the traditional method (days at a time, not weeks/months).

The alternative to this is to bulk for months (by eating a caloric excess): gain a bunch of muscle ... but also a bunch of fat. Then you shift to a cutting diet (by eating a caloric deficit): lose a bunch of fat ... but also lose muscle. A long-term linear reduction in nutritional intake will result in muscle loss ... period.
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Last edited by cursor; 30-Jul-04 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 27-Jul-04, 07:35 AM   #19
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Cursor you are somewhat confused about bulking/gaining cycles. The reason that *traditional* (pre-drug) bulking cycles lasted for months was that it took that long to actually gain any muscle. For a beginner you don't need to bulk this long because gains are much faster initially. If you asked Park and company how they trained the first year it would be very different than the rest of their life. Every bit of muscle you gain makes it harder to gain any more muscle, so the increase follows an exponential decay.

As for length of the cycle, it depends greatly on the individal, their stage of progress, their mental state, and their genetic ability to gain or lose weight. Essentially you bulk until you have gained enough fat / muscle, or until your muscle / strength gains start to plateau. This may take weeks for a beginner, or months for an advanced athlete.

Then you switch to a cutting cycle and trim off the excess fat, how much fat is gained depends on the individual. Some people like Franko Columbo, had a reputation for having little need of a cutting cycle, some people get fat really quickly so they need to watch overeating really carefully, some have a very difficult time gaining any mass, even fat, as their metabolic resistance is pretty much zero, so they have to bulk for a *long* time and overeat heavily. Check out the hardgainer board to see people struggle to gain 10-15 lbs *lifetime*.



As for getting really fat, that only has come about because of the drugs. Pre-drug bodybuilders could not get really fat because you can't burn it off effectively (for most people) without taking too long or losing muscle. The more muscle you have, that harder it is to keep it on a diet. So somone like Park who competed at 210-220, would only bulk up to 230-240. Now bodybuilders with the same LBM will go way up to 280+ lbs and use clenbuterol and other substances to burn it off rapidly during a cutting cycle.

-Cliff

Last edited by CliffStamp; 27-Jul-04 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 27-Jul-04, 12:50 PM   #20
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I Am Also Very Interested In This Subject!i Have Been Readind About The Nutrient Timing System And They Say You Need A 3 To 1 Carb To Protien Drink Within 45 Min Post Workout To Spike Your Insulin Leaving You In An Anabolic State For Proper Muscle Growth.Then Two Hours Later 3 To 1 Protein To Carb To Further This Effect.This Also Replenishes Your Glycogen Stores For Your Next Workout!by Keeping Your Carbs At A Moderate Level The Rest Of The Day Will This Induce Your Body To Lose Fat While Gaining Muscle? WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Last edited by PUMPIN45; 27-Jul-04 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 27-Jul-04, 12:59 PM   #21
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No it will simply induce your bank account to drop. If you want to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time you have to:

1) be greatly overweight
2) be vastly undertrained
3) take a lot of drugs

Otherwise you go on a cutting diet to burn off the fat, include resistance training to keep the muscle you have, if you gain some great. Then once you achieve your desired level of body fat, you switch to a diet to maintain this weight, and/or eat more 10/15% to try and gain some mass, watching the level of fat you gain at the same time.

-Cliff
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Old 27-Jul-04, 01:17 PM   #22
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Ok Lets Say I Want To Lose Fat Without Losing Muscle.whats The Best Way To Do This W/o Doing Cardio?i Work Out 4 Times A Week And Give My Muscles Ample Time To Recover Before I Hit Them Again.
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Old 27-Jul-04, 02:27 PM   #23
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You in general would not want to do cardio to lose fat as its highly catabolic, it can be of beneficial for various health reasons though, and it helps a lot of people mentally a lot more than just cutting calories, so it has its benefits.

Take a small caloric deficit, say 500 per day, and with the training go as hard as you can.

When you are eating well you want to rest a lot to give your body time to recover, while cutting however this can have the opposite effect, so you have to work much closer to the overtraining point, as if you relax you won't overcompensate your body will just consume the muscle.

This is individual however so you have to experiment with both how much to cut and how to work out, some people will catabolize muscle *very* easy so have to push very hard to maintain. Your level of development makes a huge difference here, if you are a novice the stimulus from exercising will generally be larger than the catabolism induce from the diet.

It becomes problematic for more advanced athletes who are closer to their optimal level of development and thus their level of induced catabolism is very high with any type of cutting diet.

-Cliff
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Old 28-Jul-04, 08:53 AM   #24
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Thanks For The Advice Cliff! I Am 45 And Need To Hold On To As Much Muscle As I Can.Are There Any Supplements That Can Help Keep The Muscle While Dieting?
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Old 28-Jul-04, 09:28 AM   #25
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As far as supplements are concerned, the only item that I puchase and use is protein powder supplements. Even then, I don't use much of it during any single day (unlike some). I structure my daily nutrition on nutrient-rich, whole foods.
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I Am 45 And Need To Hold On To As Much Muscle As I Can.
I hear ya'. I'm 51 and tryin' to do the same. :
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Old 28-Jul-04, 09:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffStamp
If you want to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time you have to:

1) be greatly overweight
2) be vastly undertrained
3) take a lot of drugs
None of the above apply to me, yet I'm on a slow but steady climb to increased lean body mass while decreasing my body fat (despite my age).

concurrent muscle-building & fat-burning
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Old 28-Jul-04, 01:30 PM   #27
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Great Pics Cursor!i Agree Slow And Steady Progress Is The Way Too Go.
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Old 28-Jul-04, 09:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffStamp
Cursor you are somewhat confused about bulking/gaining cycles.
Uh ... there's no "confusion" whatsoever. You're certainly not telling anything that I've not already been exposed to. But thanks.

My methods of training don't have to echo those of Park or Columbo -- and they certainly won't parallel techniques employed by today's drug user. I read about how other people develop their lean mass (including the old-schoolers), then I experiment, evaluate my results, then I make further adjustments. That sequence is cycled again and again. Since I'm always in the market for fresh ideas, I'm always reading and learning from new sources. :

Using my "confused" technique, I think I've done pretty damn well for myself (but not done yet): Body-fat measurement accuracy. For anyone who wants to experiment with what I've learned and applied, I'm here to share both my methods and progressive pics as a indicator of what can be done (so far, 7600 posts worth).
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Last edited by cursor; 28-Jul-04 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 29-Jul-04, 09:23 AM   #29
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Cursor using your pics, when you started you were seriously undertrained / underdeveloped, and as I noted therefore the stimulus for gaining muscle is high in responce to exercise, and thus you can gain even while losing fat. Any beginner, except those who are extreme hardgainers will thus respond in this manner. However this stops rapidly. Compare your progress in the second year to the first for example, and then the third to the second and so on. It gets vastly harder each time, which is why bulking cycles tend to increase as time passes and you have to live with more fat gained.

You also need to understand there is a massive amount of variability in responce to training, for example as I noted, Columbo didn't really have to worry about cutting at all, he didn't even consider diet seriously, does this mean he should generalize and tell everyone else to work out the same way. Park never worred about overtraining, and went to extremes with a level of workout intensity and frequency that could not be matched by Reeve or other high level competitors, let alone regular Joe's.

The question is also poorly considered in general, rather than thinking "Can I gain LBM and lose fat" a better perspective would be "What is the best way to gain LBM and lose fat." and in that light trying to cut and gain LBM at the same time is very inefficient, unless as noted you are in one of the above three catagories.

As for bulking, yes you are confused when you stated traditional methods were to get really fat, unless by traditional you meant current drug use, as noted traditional bulking cycles could not run to get very fat and were only long because the rate of muscle gain was so slow it demaned that length. Now consider what this would mean in terms of trying to gain and cut at the same time, if it is really hard to gain while bulking (and it takes months), the progress while cutting is going to obviously be worse not better.

-Cliff
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Old 29-Jul-04, 11:39 AM   #30
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My thoery on the matter is.
Excersize (lift or cardio) to raise you metabolism NOT burn calories
Build muscle
since fat oxidation is a slow process the only effective way to burn primarily fat is to raise your metabolism. Running at a medium pace for an hour may burn a lot of calories but you have to replace these or you'll feel tired and worn out. In my opinion if you follow the general concensus of diet (do a quick search) you can not possibly eat too much. Over the past year and a half I've added about 800 cal/day to my diet and am even leaner than before.

Finally most women are too afraid to build muscle because they think they'll look bulky. As a man I think most women could gain 15 lbs of muscle before they start to look unattractive this would take years of heavy strength training esp for women (Testosterone is better than estrogen), at 200 lbs & 22 years old I'm thrilled at 1 lb/month.
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