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Old 19-Aug-07, 09:53 PM   #16
EliteLift
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I must ask..whos Tubar??

i liked "the root of all evil". it kinda pushes atheism more than i liked. lots of good points overal though..
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Old 19-Aug-07, 10:27 PM   #17
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I must ask..whos Tubar??

i liked "the root of all evil". it kinda pushes atheism more than i liked. lots of good points overal though..
Oops! You quoted your friend Taber, not Tuber. My mistake... tubers are roots.

I'm not an atheist, I really do believe in vegetables for optimal health.
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Old 19-Aug-07, 11:49 PM   #18
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lol!....without getting into a religious debat, I take it you agree that refined carbohydrates in exess can cause arterial sclerosis??

how and where did i qoute Taber? i agreed...

sorry i'm just confused. I thought we were talking about food clogging arteries, and then i started hereing things about Kermit getting maggots from eating to many fly's and so on....? Kermit was always my favorit muppet..poor guy.

Do atheists not believe in vegetables for optimal health? i was not aware.. or maybe i'm just not getting the much deeper point your trying to make?

Either way i'm one confused goose..
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Old 20-Aug-07, 09:55 PM   #19
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Either way i'm one confused goose..

Mmmmmm, goose.

I too am confused by now.
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Old 22-Aug-07, 01:07 PM   #20
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Ok I had to skip the last few posts I mean ????????

Elite lift is correct in that carbs can cause artheriosclerosis when taken as refined carbs or natural simple sugars as a result of the insulin response.

It is an an inflammatory process so most things pro inflammation and oxidative in nature will promote plaque formation.

Saturated fats will in excess be a big no no for those with a problem.

Trans fat (processed foods) a huge no no

Typically dietary cholesterol can be ok as the liver regulates according to diest. Familial problems and you need to cut it out in diet.
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Old 22-Aug-07, 02:55 PM   #21
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mmm

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Old 22-Aug-07, 02:59 PM   #22
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I believe if yr fit and diet well the artery is like a storm drain.
Fast moving fluid allows no crap to settle.
xtrem i eat 8oz of bacon for breakfast with 2 eggs and tomotoes
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Old 23-Aug-07, 07:23 AM   #23
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I sense that the elephant in the room is being ignored. The primary factor in developing heart disease is diet. Consumption of animal foods leads to high total cholesterol levels (above 150 mg/dl) which are directly correlated with the development of heart disease. Consumption of free oils (oils and fats extracted from plants or rendered from animals) are important contributors to the problem. Genes only play a small role. Physical activity helps but is not sufficient to prevent the development of heart disease. Consumption of whole plant foods combined with the elimination of animal foods and free oils has been demonstrated to effectively prevent and reverse heart disease. Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., a former internationally known surgeon, researcher and clinician at the Cleveland Clinic, recently published an excellent book on this subject. Dr. Esselstyn explains the science and the results of his long-term studies in preventing and reversing heart disease.

Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease

The best scientific evidence to date supports these statements.

Last edited by vegan; 23-Aug-07 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 23-Aug-07, 10:25 AM   #24
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I sense that the elephant in the room is being ignored. The primary factor in developing heart disease is diet. Consumption of animal foods leads to high total cholesterol levels (above 150 mg/dl) which are directly correlated with the development of heart disease. Consumption of free oils (oils and fats extracted from plants or rendered from animals) are important contributors to the problem. Genes only play a small role. Physical activity helps but is not sufficient to prevent the development of heart disease. Consumption of whole plant foods combined with the elimination of animal foods and free oils has been demonstrated to effectively prevent and reverse heart disease. Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., a former internationally known surgeon, researcher and clinician at the Cleveland Clinic, recently published an excellent book on this subject. Dr. Esselstyn explains the science and the results of his long-term studies in preventing and reversing heart disease.

Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease

The best scientific evidence to date supports these statements.
Wow that is so wrong if you were not a long term poster here I would be calling on Pierini to ban the spammer talking rubbish,,

Genes are a huge factor.
Exercise is a huge factor.
Diet is also huge but highly relates to the above 2.

When you cut out the food everyone knows we should not eat ie processed
foods trans fats etc if diet and genes are in check welcome good arterial health despite a high meat consumption.

I eat meat 4 times a day. My last cholesterol was 2.59 (3-5.5range Europe) I think you will find that is below 150 with a hdl ldl ratio of approx 1:1 (this is what truly matters not total cholesterol).
The best my doctor had ever seen in 30 years of practise. TG were below the minimum of the normal ranges also.

Once again Vegan you take things too far trying to force your beliefs.

Also since genes are 'small players' why do you not post your cholesterol readings so we can directly compare a high meat versus vegan diet!!
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Old 23-Aug-07, 01:34 PM   #25
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No study is irrefutable.

I do discount studies by those with something to sell such as the book in the link. I give some credence to the things vegan says although I don't agree with them because vegan isn't trying to sell anything. Just posting info about lifestyle and food choices.

Most of us who are open to other ideas do realize that being meat eaters is not a sentance to an early grave. My mother for example is a near vegan. She does eat some fish and non fat dairy products. Her cholesterol just keeps going up and has been at lethal "heart attack waiting to happen" levels for years.

I simply cannot convince her that the positive changes made in my own body and general state of health have anything to do with the way I eat (lots of red meat, almost no refined foods except the occasional pound of weekend oreos, and plenty of green veggies)...and getting fat came from the carby, starchy, super low fat way of eating I learned from her my entire early life.
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Old 23-Aug-07, 02:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Maxgain View Post
Ok I had to skip the last few posts I mean ????????

Elite lift is correct in that carbs can cause artheriosclerosis when taken as refined carbs or natural simple sugars as a result of the insulin response.

It is an an inflammatory process so most things pro inflammation and oxidative in nature will promote plaque formation.

Saturated fats will in excess be a big no no for those with a problem.

Trans fat (processed foods) a huge no no

Typically dietary cholesterol can be ok as the liver regulates according to diest. Familial problems and you need to cut it out in diet.
Well with my metabolism i eat whatever and its hard to gain weight so people tell me not really to worry about what i eat.
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Old 23-Aug-07, 09:14 PM   #27
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Also since genes are 'small players' why do you not post your cholesterol readings so we can directly compare a high meat versus vegan diet!!
No problem. When I was on the typical Western diet my total cholesterol was consistently over 250. After going on a vegan diet it dropped to 134 not to mention cutting triglycerides from 230+ to 95 and blood pressure from 150/100 to 110/70.

I've been studying this subject for the past dozen years, collecting articles, studies, corresponding with researchers, etc. There are growing numbers of respected doctors successfully treating chronic diseases (such as heart disease) with lifestyle medicine. These are courageous people who put their careers on the line to speak out against the use of expensive drugs and needless surgery to treat the symptoms rather than the underlying causes of chronic diseases.

The medical system in the USA doesn't compensate doctors for spending time to work with their patients to improve their lifestyles. It is much more profitable for the doctor to spend a few minutes with the patient and write them a prescription. I would argue that even the patients would rather take a pill than address their food addictions - including fatty meats (fat as a percentage of calories).

Optimal health can be achieved by eating minimally processed plant foods that are low on the food chain. A good example of this is an organic apple or a carrot.

Poor health results from taking meat, blood, feather and bone meal and running it through a cow to create meat and dairy products (protein and fats). Good examples of this are hamburgers and milk. These are highly recycled foods processed through the cow as if it were a machine. I want to barf just thinking about it.

If white carbs are so bad then why do rural Chinese have such low levels of heart disease with a diet that is high in white rice, vegetables and very low in meat?

You'll have a hard time convincing me that a vegan diet of whole plant foods won't work - because it does. Heart disease, marked with high cholesterol and high blood pressure, 'runs in my family' yet a simple switch to a vegan diet radically improved my health. But this is just a sample of a few people and it would be a mistake to make generalizations based upon my personal experience. Instead, there is a wide range of studies, research and observable facts which I have posted extensively on in this forum. Also a little common sense. For example, heart disease has grown rapidly in the past few decades but genes do not change rapidly. To lay the blame on genetics is clearly misplaced. The fact is that animal products and other highly processed foods now make up about 93% of the American diet. Combine that with sendentary lifestyles and you have the root cause of an epidemic in chronic disease that is spreading around the world.

So here I post observable facts and you suggest that I'm a spammer talking rubbish who is forcing my beliefs on you - that perhaps I should be reported to the forum authorities. And your views are not spam rubbish forced upon me?

It's clear where we both stand on plant-based versus animal-based diets, so let's agree that this is an open forum where we can have a healthy debate on nutrition. Although my views may be in sharp contrast to your commonly held beliefs, it does not make them incorrect.
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Old 23-Aug-07, 09:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by EliteLift View Post
Either way i'm one confused goose..
Wait a minute...
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Old 24-Aug-07, 04:56 AM   #29
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No problem. When I was on the typical Western diet my total cholesterol was consistently over 250. After going on a vegan diet it dropped to 134 not to mention cutting triglycerides from 230+ to 95 and blood pressure from 150/100 to 110/70.

I've been studying this subject for the past dozen years, collecting articles, studies, corresponding with researchers, etc. There are growing numbers of respected doctors successfully treating chronic diseases (such as heart disease) with lifestyle medicine. These are courageous people who put their careers on the line to speak out against the use of expensive drugs and needless surgery to treat the symptoms rather than the underlying causes of chronic diseases.

The medical system in the USA doesn't compensate doctors for spending time to work with their patients to improve their lifestyles. It is much more profitable for the doctor to spend a few minutes with the patient and write them a prescription. I would argue that even the patients would rather take a pill than address their food addictions - including fatty meats (fat as a percentage of calories).

Optimal health can be achieved by eating minimally processed plant foods that are low on the food chain. A good example of this is an organic apple or a carrot.

Poor health results from taking meat, blood, feather and bone meal and running it through a cow to create meat and dairy products (protein and fats). Good examples of this are hamburgers and milk. These are highly recycled foods processed through the cow as if it were a machine. I want to barf just thinking about it.

If white carbs are so bad then why do rural Chinese have such low levels of heart disease with a diet that is high in white rice, vegetables and very low in meat?

You'll have a hard time convincing me that a vegan diet of whole plant foods won't work - because it does. Heart disease, marked with high cholesterol and high blood pressure, 'runs in my family' yet a simple switch to a vegan diet radically improved my health. But this is just a sample of a few people and it would be a mistake to make generalizations based upon my personal experience. Instead, there is a wide range of studies, research and observable facts which I have posted extensively on in this forum. Also a little common sense. For example, heart disease has grown rapidly in the past few decades but genes do not change rapidly. To lay the blame on genetics is clearly misplaced. The fact is that animal products and other highly processed foods now make up about 93% of the American diet. Combine that with sendentary lifestyles and you have the root cause of an epidemic in chronic disease that is spreading around the world.

So here I post observable facts and you suggest that I'm a spammer talking rubbish who is forcing my beliefs on you - that perhaps I should be reported to the forum authorities. And your views are not spam rubbish forced upon me?

It's clear where we both stand on plant-based versus animal-based diets, so let's agree that this is an open forum where we can have a healthy debate on nutrition. Although my views may be in sharp contrast to your commonly held beliefs, it does not make them incorrect.
So another word your diet does not produce a cardiovascular profile as good as my "if there is no meat its not a meal" diet.

I may be coming across as abrupt with regards to your post but frankly I intend to.
I openly embrace the importance of whole grains nuts fruits and vegetables. They easily make up the majority of my diet. However I have a balance in my diet where you dont.

I also know no matter what I post it wont matter to you so there is no real point in going further.

Maxgain
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Last edited by Maxgain; 24-Aug-07 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 24-Aug-07, 07:42 AM   #30
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No problem. When I was on the typical Western diet my total cholesterol was consistently over 250. After going on a vegan diet it dropped to 134 not to mention cutting triglycerides from 230+ to 95 and blood pressure from 150/100 to 110/70.
I am not on a vegan diet. I eat plenty of meat which includes red meat and pork.

My readings about three weeks ago were:

Cholesterol: 114
Triglycerides: 115 (up from 64)
Blood pressure: 115/75 (up from my usual 110/70)

So please define "typical western diet."

Although diet plays a role, so does exercise. I don't believe diet plays as big a role as you like to believe. Diet does play a role in all of our blood labs, but I believe exercise plays a much bigger role.

But the bottom line is everyone's bodies are different. Certain things such as diet may play a bigger role for your body than for other people. For others, exercise may play a bigger role.
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