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Old 28-Jun-03, 02:03 PM   #1
Jock
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Building Mass While Losing Fat Is A Myth!

Hey

I've noticed a spate of posts recently, pointing generally in the direction of "I want to build muscle and lose fat", I know there will be people that dispute this, but I believe that the whole concept is flawed.

While it may be possible, for the very dedicated and committed, I still believe that the results are minimal, considering the time and effort put in.

Telling newbies that building muscle while losing fat is possible is a bad idea from the start, it will lead to mediocrity and ultimatley complete dispair.

Building a significant amount of muscle to me, is consuming more calories than the body burns off, where a slight gain in bodyfat is inevitable, but can be limited with a clean diet, and correct cardio.

Losing a significant amount of fat to me, is burning off more calories than the body is consuming, where a slight loss of muscle is inevitable, but can also be limited with correct diet and controlled amounts of cardio.

We seem live in a world where everybody wants everything instantaneously, without hard work or commitment. If we could build lots of muscle while losing fat, without the use of drugs, there would be far more people in the world with plenty of muscle mass and very low bodyfat percentages.

Has anyone seen Lee Priest in his off-season? He looks like a right fat b*stard! His bodyfat reaches the mid twenties! 3 months of strict dieting later and he is ripped to the bone and ready for competition!

So what if your belt notch feels tight? or your belly feels flabby? Get over it! Concentrate on the MASS first and getting ripped second!

Kidding yourself that you can do both, will only end up in you looking the same in 5 years time!

Just my thoughts, Jock
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Old 28-Jun-03, 02:23 PM   #2
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I agree with most of what you are saying jock... people should definetly have a single goal in mind... lose fat or gain muscle... combining the 2 is almost impossible... but that is up for debate

but to add to that debate... a pure newbie who has never lifted before can get into the gym and start to put on some muscle in area's they never knew existed... now these gains may not be extreme.. but I bet that jolt into working out would have been able to help them add some new muscle to area's never thought of... and also burn some extra fat away with the increase in metabolism... but this of course is a fairly short period of time and it basically only works once ;-)
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Old 28-Jun-03, 02:36 PM   #3
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werd. i tried to bulk and cut up at the same time and i gained like 1pd. in a month or so. wasn't worth it.

your body can't multi-task efficeintly; pick 1 and do it
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Old 28-Jun-03, 03:30 PM   #4
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Jock said:
We seem live in a world where everybody wants everything instantaneously, without hard work or commitment. If we could build lots of muscle while losing fat, without the use of drugs, there would be far more people in the world with plenty of muscle mass and very low bodyfat percentages.


The first part of that statement is oh so true.

I feel compelled to point out that "lots of muscle" is a relative amount. How much would make you happy? I expect that most people don't want to look like Lee Priest. I know that I don't. The same can be said of maintaining a "very low bodyfat percentage." How low is low enough?

The reason why people experience so much frustration in their quest for improved physiques (or just being healthy) is mainly because they simply don't know how. With so much conflicting opinion, it certainly is confusing. It takes a strong and determined individual to push through all of the nonsense, including all the empty recommendations to "find what works for you." (In other words, "tread water for awhile and maybe you'll find a life-raft in this ocean of confusion.") Since most people simply don't have the the focus and emotional stamina to drive through it, they give up and fall back into old habits.

Only by learning how your body worx (and most bodies are basically the same), then addressing its system requirements in a patient and intelligent manner, will you reach your true genetic capabilies.

Last edited by cursor; 28-Jun-03 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 28-Jun-03, 03:57 PM   #5
Jock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cursor
I feel compelled to point out that "lots of muscle" is a relative amount. How much would make you happy? I expect that most people don't want to look like Lee Priest. I know that I don't. The same can be said of maintaining a "very low bodyfat percentage." How low is low enough?
Very well put Cursor, but was I assuming most of the members on this board as bodybuilders want to be as big and as ripped as possible. DF isn't a hardcore board, which I like and respect.

What I was getting at is the members who glance through at a copy of FLEX, MuscleMag, Muscle & Fitness, Men's Health or whatever and say 'I wanna look like that guy in the front cover' then their trail of thought leads to 'it can't be that hard, all I have to do is build muscle and lose some fat' at the same time of course.

I used Lee Priest as an extreme example, of course not everyone wants to look like him, but the simple fact is that his physique is sculpted through 2 distinct phases, cutting and bulking, not a combination of the two.

If we are all striving to look our best (whatever that is) shouldn't we take a leaf outta the proffessionals' book and stop faffing around with a pound of lean mass gained here and a pound of fat lost there!?

Jock
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Old 28-Jun-03, 03:58 PM   #6
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I agree with a lot of what you say Jock, I think I would have achieved more this year if I'd not been weighed down with information overload and trying to achieve everything at once instead of either trying to lose fat or trying to gain muscle and I think to do either of those things, direction and consistency are all important
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Old 28-Jun-03, 04:09 PM   #7
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It does get a little overwhelming to the newbie, I can tell you. Unfortunately, many don't want to believe things are as simple as Cursor and the rest of you regulars here so correctly describe. Well, welcome to the difference between simple and easy folks. The concepts are simple, but it does take some patience and perseverence.

As for getting mass first and ripped second, here's one view that the other way around might be a better approach:
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/..._jul272001.htm

Scroll down to "When to bulk up..."

Carl
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Old 28-Jun-03, 04:13 PM   #8
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Jock,
Great post. I agree that one needs to cycle. I also believe that what people really want is to look ripped, so most of the time what people really want is to lose more fat and gain a little muscle and that's what they mean by gaining muscle while losing fat at the same time. which is possible to alsser degree.For example, most people would agree that bruce lee looked amazing even though is muscle mass was minimal. his body was minimal too. He probably never cycled because he was training for functional purposes and not purely aesthetics. what I'm trying to say is that cycling is great for bodybuilders but not for the average person who simply wants to look good. Also you mentioned Lee priest. Guys like him spend more time researching anabolics than working out so I don't believe he falls into the category of "gaining muscle while shedding fat at the same time " category. He's a pro. Most people aren't.

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Old 28-Jun-03, 04:27 PM   #9
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Some very intelligent replies well done people!

The concepts we are grappling with are very abstract, but going back to Lee Priest, I meant that he bulks up and gains large amounts of mass but also gains a lot of fat, he then diets strictly to lose bodyfat and keep as much muscle as possible.

I agree he is a pro, and we are all amateurs, but we do share 1 thing in common we are all bodybuilders/strength athletes. I assume that we are all looking for mass with lower amounts of bodyfat?

Surely then we should model our diet/training principles on those of the pros? (albeit scaled-down versions)

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Old 28-Jun-03, 04:39 PM   #10
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The only reason I do bulk/cut cycles is because they work
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Old 28-Jun-03, 05:33 PM   #11
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We had a similar discussion before in this thread.

I still believe you can get to your goals faster if you balance your intake so you're gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. But I also agree that this is bad advice to give a beginner since the balance of variables is easy to screw up. As far as newbies are concerned, we should just tell them to pick a single goal (add muscle -or- lose fat ... not both). Let them see the progress and get them hooked.

What we really need (as I said in the old thread) are two identical twins to undergo a study. One working towards his goals using bulk and cut cycles, and the other using a combination of gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time. I'd be very curious to these results. Any twins out there?

BMS
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Old 28-Jun-03, 06:22 PM   #12
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isnt the cycle bulk up in the winter, and then cut down when the weather gets hotter? or am i misinformed?
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Old 28-Jun-03, 08:30 PM   #13
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i agree with everyone wants everything instantly. i see that in my school. all the lazy you know whats. i'm trying a gonna try a new diet plan that might be able to build mass and lose fat at the same time. it's really high portien, low carbs, and low fat. i might share the results if i get any.
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Old 28-Jun-03, 09:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rookie
isnt the cycle bulk up in the winter, and then cut down when the weather gets hotter? or am i misinformed?
That's the popular method so you can look good in the summer
But it doesn't matter when you decide to bulk or cut.
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Old 28-Jun-03, 11:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex(AJ)
werd. i tried to bulk and cut up at the same time and i gained like 1pd. in a month or so. wasn't worth it.

your body can't multi-task efficeintly; pick 1 and do it

is it fair to say that your 1lb. was strictly lean muscle mass instead of a combination of fat AND muscle as on a bulking cycle?
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