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Old 29-Jun-03, 08:28 AM   #16
cursor
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Fitness cycles are frequently centered around seasonal sport (which is typically an annual/calendar thing). Since football & baseball (for example) are played at different times during the year, physical peaking times for their respective athletes will differ.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 10:09 AM   #17
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Yes, agreed, sports-specific training, for example, uses periodization or cycles to adapt to seasons where you'll have the time to train and then when you'll need the results of that training for game time.

However, I'm also of the opinion that while long-range plans of building muscle and losing fat are wonderful, that it will end up happening in stages, like it or not. We can either work with it, accept it and understand it, or yo yo back and forth trying to fight it.

I remember when I started training, and gained weight, and my trainer had to sit me down and explain to me to expect that I may gain weight first, (not to panic), and she further explained what happened in my body with exercise, with muscle and fat,....and I'll tell you, for some reason, the WAY she explained it, for me, as a woman, I didn't panic when the scale went up (at first) before it came down.

I know most women (in particular) freeze when that scale either stagnates or goes up,... but it takes some skill in explaining and faith in understanding, that the body sort of works in shifts.

I know it can happen, it IS possible to SIMULTANEOUSLY lose fat AND gain muscle, but it is my belief that those are the rare exceptions to the rule, and upon close monitoring it is evident that the affect of tissues (ie: building muscle or losing fat) -- that act happens in cycles.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 11:00 AM   #18
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Mate, doing both is possible, but I must say I would find the process of meticulously counting every single calorie tedious, for that is what it will take to get the balance correct. As I have increased my bodyweight I am also lifting and working with greater and greater loads which of course means increases in strength and muscle size.
ATM it is easier to adhere to a mass building diet exclusively during this phase to fuel my needs - less confusing in practicle ways, like measuring, weighing, cooking styles etc.
Personally, the Cutting up phase is merely an opportunity to see the fruits of my labour (pull back the curtains so to speak ) - summertime, for me at least, would seem to be the most logical time to lose bf% as the fresh produce available is much more conducive to lighter, nutritional meals.
At the end of this phase don't be alarmed, but expect to lose a little muscle size as well, nothing too drastic though

So, for me, it's one or the other, not both at the same time.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 02:41 PM   #19
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Just so you know, it is quite possible to do this. With new studies on the effects of supercompensation of EPA/DHA and other EFA's, people have made their fat cells close to insulin resistant which allows them to gain mass without fat gain.

As much as I don't care for t-mag stuff, this guy was done wonders and he claims no drug use. All you can do is hope he isn't lying:
http://t-forums.t-mag.com/readTopic.do?id=285831
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Old 29-Jun-03, 02:51 PM   #20
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While I don't dispute the possibility of this, I think results would be minimal even over a long period of time, most people who want to gain muscle and lose fat are impatient, and will only stick to something if results are immediate.

I am a firm believer in bulking and cutting cycles, it will take more than a few fancy diet plans to change my mind.

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Old 29-Jun-03, 03:11 PM   #21
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Wonderful conversation, galileo. Thanks for posting.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 03:22 PM   #22
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EFA's aren't a fancy diet plan, Jock. They are what we evolved on. There are so many studies that exist showing the benefits that it is impossible to ignore.

Did you read that thread? He made great progress without fat gain, and it is amazing.

Also, have you ever heard of HIIT? Nutrient Partitioning? Bulking and cutting are soon to be a way of the past. Your body is way more adaptable than you give it credit for.

Here is a round table on more EFA info:
http://johnberardi.com/articles/nutr...roundtable.htm

Do yourself a favor and search on PubMed.com for HIIT or High Intensity Interval Training. The effects from GH and lactic acid disposal are not marginal by any means and the glycogen uptake effects are also quite impressive. Body recomposition is a reality and I shall prove this to you in the next few months.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 03:28 PM   #23
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Bro I know all about HIIT I include 'Guerilla Cardio' (a very high-intensity sprint/interval workout) in all my cutting phases.

I appreciate the info, but I still have serious doubts over the whole concept.

Jock
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Old 29-Jun-03, 07:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock
I've noticed a spate of posts recently, pointing generally in the direction of "I want to build muscle and lose fat"...
I get the feeling you're talking about my recent posts and threads. Please don't misunderstand me. I was just looking for a way to achieve my goal. I dont expect to do something and gain muscle and lose fat quickly like it's nothing. I was looking for an idea such as maybe your bulking and cutting technique to maybe help me achieve my goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock
While it may be possible, for the very dedicated and committed, I still believe that the results are minimal, considering the time and effort put in.
You just said it may be possible, for the very dedicated. Isn't that what bodybuilding, weightloss and nutrition are all about? Commitment and dedication?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock
Telling newbies that building muscle while losing fat is possible is a bad idea from the start, it will lead to mediocrity and ultimatley complete dispair.
While I may be new to this website, I am no "newbie" to working out, weight loss, and nutrition, trust me. I see what you are saying and good reasoning in your thinking, but I also believe it can be done with extreme hard work just like you said.

All the things I'm saying can be explained in my other thread where you didn't seem to fond of what I'm saying, go see it and check it out.
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Old 29-Jun-03, 10:00 PM   #25
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Sorry you don't buy it Jock! I refuse to bulk up to gain weight again though. It is just not worth it.
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Old 30-Jun-03, 01:46 AM   #26
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Bulking and cutting cycles are very effective. And yes, you are more likely to gain more mass on a bulking cycle than you are when you have your diet for building mass and losing fat. If you want to build muscle and lose fat att he same time, yes it's definetly possible if you do everything right, but it might take a little slower that way, and risks the possibility of not making gains. Some people might not want to go on bulking cycles due to fear of gaining too much fat in which bulking runs that risk, or not want to go on cutting cycles due to fear of losing too much muscle which also runs that risk. There are good and bad things about both methods of bulking/cutting cycles, and gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.
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Old 30-Jun-03, 04:22 AM   #27
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Would it not be best to look at the raw truth?

Truth: We all want to loose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

The dispute is the effectiveness of it. In my case I am convinced and with acceptable proof that I have lost weight and gained muscle at the same time. But then I am newbie and fat so some of you have said perhaps it is possible from starting at such a point. I agree. The ability to loose weight with bonus muscle gain is limited and will diminish to minute levels. Yes I am happy to gain muscle, very much so, but my goal right now is the fat.

There is too, the muscle burns fat argument in that ultimately to loose fat you have to burn it via muscle. Isn't that an interesting spanner in the works?

I think some of you have touched on the real issue discouraging newbies much like myself. Which is Time. We want to loose the weight right away. Now! Even better yesterday so we can show off or attract or do more Today. But you who are more knowledgable here know that muscle does not pack onto the bone overnight nor does the fat melt and flow away in a day. No it takes Time. Lots and lots of Time and these modern days nobody has any Time and the patience whcih is implied do they?

I truely think those who don't gain muscle or loose weight are failing, not because they are trying to do it at the same time, but because they want the results Now and they know deep down it won't happen. Those who succeed, and some of you have with flying colours, are both knowledgable and patient so take the Time.

I'm thrilled to be blessed with vast patience and now I am taking the Time and hopefully the knowledge here is enough and clear enough for me. I want to succeed too.
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Old 30-Jun-03, 05:30 AM   #28
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great post trias
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Old 30-Jun-03, 07:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trias
I think some of you have touched on the real issue discouraging newbies much like myself. Which is Time. We want to loose the weight right away. Now! Even better yesterday so we can show off or attract or do more Today. But you who are more knowledgable here know that muscle does not pack onto the bone overnight nor does the fat melt and flow away in a day. No it takes Time. Lots and lots of Time and these modern days nobody has any Time and the patience whcih is implied do they?
Much truth has been shared here, but actually I disagree with the last part, that it takes lots and lots of time. This belief is, itself, a symptom of the problem. It doesn't take lots of time. Most people can make huge strides in a year. Look at what AARS did. A year is (hopefully) a small part of the rest of your life. This is not a lot of time. It's a matter of perspective.

Numerous studies of those who have sucessfully lost fat and kept it off for years show that virtually everybody became committed to a permanent change in the way they eat and exercise. If anybody had tried to study those who put on muscle and kept it would see the same thing even more obviously. This information is a hint at the perspective you want.

I once heard a story about a recently divorced woman who wanted to go to college but was discouraged about how long it would take going to school in the evenings after work. A friend asked "Well, how long do you think it will take?" She replied "At least 10 years!"

"And how old will you be then?" her friend asked. "I'll be 45!" came the reply. The firiend hesitated thoughfully a moment and then asked "And how hold will you be in 10 years if you don't go back to school?"

Now, there are legitimate short-term reasons to want to lose fat or gain muscle, but I submit that, for most of us, if you are not in it for the long haul then you should probably reevaluate your thinking.

Carl
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Old 30-Jun-03, 09:39 AM   #30
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Stimulating thoughts. Thanks CJNY. Where will we all be (fitness-wise) in 10 years? How about 30 years from now (and beyond)?

Success in applying any nutrition program comes from understanding and applying rules. Regardless of the program that you personally choose:
  • Losing fat while gaining muscle, or
  • Bulking, then cutting
... following proper procedure is what counts—if you want positive and predictable results, that is.

Concern has been expressed that only by meticulously watching your eating program can you succeed in losing fat while gaining muscle. I would submit that the same is true when bulking/cutting. The particulars of how you administer either plan is what distinguishes between success and failure.

If you don't bulk intelligently (by eating incorrect volumes, or not understanding food combinations, or not properly apply principles of nutrition timing), then the cutting phase becomes ineffective (and very frequently leads to throwing in the towel). On the other hand, if you don't cut-up properly, then you simply end up (weeks/months later) as a smaller version of yourself—you'll lose your bulked muscle (assuming you did THAT phase right) along with the fat.

Rules apply regardless of the program that you choose.

My wife and I are busy people—we don't live to workout. We workout to live. If we can adopt effective eating habits that will contribute to life-long health (and plenty of muscle)—with minimal interruption to our lifestyle—then we're certainly game.
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